Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > CAN ~ Collective Action Network

Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..

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psy:

--- Quote from: "xEnderx" ---Quality of life is defined by an individuals ability to fulfil what are called "ADL's". This means getting up and going to work, taking part in society, having a reasonable range of emotions (happy, sad, joyful, angry, etc), and generally feeling that they have a "life worth living".
--- End quote ---

That might be your definition, but others have a right to seek happiness as they see fit so long as it doesnt' directly affect others.  You might look at a person shooting smack as a junkie and a loser.  I see a person who has made certain choices and should neither be condemned or made excuses for if he harms somebody.  Freedom and personal responsibility.


--- Quote ---I've always found it amusing that the statistics of spontaneous remission and AA assisted remission are pretty similar. That's no joke....but the question of "could they have done it without AA" is sort of a moot point from my perspective.

If someone FEELS that AA helps them, then it helps them.
--- End quote ---

No.  Because a person can feel that something helps them and actually have it hurt them.  Take bloodletting for example.  Once upon a time that was popular and people swore by it, claiming it saved their lives.  Snake oil being another example.  I'd have to dig for it, but there was a study done with court ordered offenders that showed that the ones who were doing the worst thought they were making great progress in recovery thanks to AA. The worse they did, the more they credited AA for saving their lives.


--- Quote ---Just because I personally feel that AA is idiotic doesn't mean I will steer a client away from 12 step if it is somethign they want to explore.
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And that's your choice.  But often people getting into AA don't have full knowledge of what they're getting into. The group is rather deceptive and i've confronted several AA members on this who have admitted it. They claim it's necessary in order to help people.  You sound like a shrink so if you are you should be familiar with the concept of informed consent.  That's one of the primary reasons I have issues with AA.


--- Quote ---When speaking of adults, nobody forces them into an AA meeting (except court) and nobody forces them to really "get anything" out of their experience there.
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Yes and no.  There might be little actual force, but there's a hell of a lot of psychological pressure including but not limited to the insinuation that if you leave you'll wind up dead, insane, or in jail.  Those in AA believe AA is the only way and they're not afraid to make that sound like a proven fact to outsiders.  NEVER will you hear an alternative suggested in AA meetings with slogans such as "Our way or the Die way".

Here's a little writeup about that:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... a_only_way

xEnderx:

--- Quote from: "psy" ---That might be your definition, but others have a right to seek happiness as they see fit so long as it doesnt' directly affect others.  You might look at a person shooting smack as a junkie and a loser.  I see a person who has made certain choices and should neither be condemned or made excuses for if he harms somebody.  Freedom and personal responsibility.
--- End quote ---

I want to be very clear in regards to this statement. I do NOT view addicts or drug abusers as "junkie's", "losers", or anything of the type. If someone I encounter is unhappy and wants help, I will do everything in my professional and personal power to assist them in developing the tools to live a more satisfying life. My responsibility is to assist people in healing the aspects of their behaviors that cause them unhappiness or damage. My responsibility is not to apply my own morals, rules, stigma, or justifications to anything they do.


I did not find this board because I am a drug crusader, I found it because I went through the Peninsula Village program. I now work in the behavioral health field because I believe at the core of my being that compassion and ethical behavior is something that the field needs if we are going to (as a society) assist in the recovery of individuals from behavioral health concerns or addiction, or mental health, or whatever the hell you call it.

I would as soon call someone a junkie as I would call them a nigger. Both are hate filled words that damage both the accuser and the person accused.



As for the AA thing, I feel like I've derailed the thread. I agree with the majority of what you've said...I just view it from a slightly different angle.


Edit: I'm also not a "shrink". I am currently what you would call a "line staff" member. I'm also working towards a degree in social work.

psy:

--- Quote from: "xEnderx" ---Addiction causes measurable and lasting changes in brain chemistry and in extreme cases physical development. Depending on the drug, these changes can be extremely long lasting. In many cases cravings can be alleviated or assisted by medication. Medically assisted detox is something that is needed in cases of extreme alcoholism. Methadone is used as a long term medication for opiate addiction.
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So drugs causes changes in the brain.  I see.  That's sort of the point.  So does a frying pan if you hit somebody hard enough with one.  IT doesn't mean it's a disease.  Part of the issue I have with the disease concept is that it labels behaviors and symptoms as diseases.  How many people suffering from depression end up in AA because of the symptoms they exhibit rather than treating the root causes of why they drink to excess?  How many of those people never get genuine treatment for the depression because they end up believing the depression is a symptom of their "spiritual" disease?


--- Quote ---Since is has measureable side effects, clear progression of intensity
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Progression of intensity.  Really?  Some such as Stanton Peele cite that as a myth.  Sometimes progressive, of course, but it's hardly guaranteed unless a person believes themselves to be powerless and doesn't bother trying ("it's futile after all they told me in AA").


--- Quote ---and can be treated medically (or at least medically assisted treatment) it fits with the disease model.
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What medical treatment.  Other than the actual alcohol dependence, which is as much a disease as poisoning is, what medical can actually be done?  IT seems to me at that point a person is referred to the local AA chapter for indoctrination.  I'm all for therapy and so forth for people who want it, but medical doctors shouldn't be passing off AA as some legitimate solution any more than they should be recommending snake oil.

psy:

--- Quote from: "xEnderx" ---I did not find this board because I am a drug crusader, I found it because I went through the Peninsula Village program. I now work in the behavioral health field because I believe at the core of my being that compassion and ethical behavior is something that the field needs if we are going to (as a society) assist in the recovery of individuals from behavioral health concerns or addiction, or mental health, or whatever the hell you call it.
--- End quote ---

I totally agree, though I'm just not sure drug use is a medical issue.  It might sometimes cause medical problems (cirrhosis, lung cancer from cigarettes, overdose), but the use itself I don't see as a disease and don't think it should be treated as one.  I think a lot more can be gained by teaching people that they're responsible for their own choices.  Who has a better chance of avoiding over-use of drugs... somebody who believes it's a choice, or somebody who believes progression is inevitable and fulfills that prophecy?


--- Quote ---As for the AA thing, I feel like I've derailed the thread.
--- End quote ---

LOL.  This is Fornits.  Show me a thread that has stayed on topic all the way through.

xEnderx:
I didn't say that drugs cause changes in brain chemistry, I said that "addiction" causes long term changes in the way that the brain operates. This is readily apparent if you look at the MRI from a long term meth abuser during the time when they are using meth, during the 6 months after they cease to use, and during the 2-3 year period that it can take for the brain to return to "normal" functioning.


I don't understand why you seem to be taking such offense to the things I've said, but I'm certianly not trying to offend anyone.

Addiction potential (as a clinical term) is defined by a drug's interaction with the mesolimbic pathway. When I say that something causes long term changes, I am speaking of the ability of the brain to regulate its production and distribution of neurotransmitters. Crossing the line from "abuse" into "addiction" occurs when the brain can no longer regulate itself or when it becomes unable to produce a chemical. Behaviorally this results in compulsions, obsession, etc. This is why from a treatment standpoint, addiction is considered to be an obsessive disorder.

I think you are under the impression that I am some sort of staunchly anti-drug person. I'm not.


You don't like AA, I get it. I can respect that. I apologize if I said something that made you feel like I'm attacking your stance. Not sure what else to say.


Oh, and when I say medically treated (or whatever), I'm referring to things such as the use of anti-obsessional meds to help combat drug cravings, the use of benzo's (in a clinical setting) to combat life threatening DT's, open and frank use of methadone programs to treat opiate addiction on a long term basis, the use of needle exchange programs without the social stigma and demonization that occurs in America, ethical accountability to "drug docs", education for parents that want to cram their kids full of anti-depressants. Stuff like that. I also want to try and keep an open mind to the fact that psychiatric or medical assistance can mean life or death for someone that is active in their addiction.

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