Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Hyde Schools
Re: HAPA
Ursus:
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---I think the story first off is a crock of shit and the person who posted it is drumming for drama.
Hey this is just my opinion, though.
--- End quote ---
Lol. Didn't realize I was "drumming for drama," but... hey, it's a lot better than drumming for MKP! :D
Despite your apparent familiarity with this case, it appears that you still have not read Chris Vogel's article, despite condemning it at every opportunity...
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---So because Chris Vogel, Investigative Journalist from the Houston Press in Houston,Tx. wrote a story with information primarily received from Michaels family and other unhappy customers, well then we should just believe everything.
I don't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here. I don't see any evidence supporting any wrong doing by MKP. What I see here is some very profoundly disappointed parents and sibling venting.
We have a snippet of Michaels life, who knows what went on in that mans life.
What is sad is Michael Scinto being used here for someones grandiose need to prove his point.
Hey try to get some documentation from a professional or this post is void.
Just my opinion, again.
--- End quote ---
Well... it seems ya musta missed this part, mentioning University of Houston Chair of Anthropology and former psychotherapist Norris Lang, color emphasis added:
"What it boils down to," says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, "is that they are doing group therapy, although they won't admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable."
Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.
"Some of the exercises that they had us engage in," he says, "were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities...in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It's kind of group therapy without any professionals involved."[/list][/size]
As well as this part, mentioning psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the UCLA's School of Medicine John Hochman; again, color emphasis added:
Dr. John Hochman, a psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, says he has seen a few patients who attended the retreat. One, he says, would not talk about it; another was scared to death.
"Some people can't deal with it," he says. "It rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test to me. The refrain of all these groups is that they're not therapy groups, they're something else. They're education, yeah, that's a good one."
He gets a chuckle out of the fact The ManKind Project uses parts of Jung and other well-known psychologists.
"What this does is give it a patina of credibility because there's a philosophy behind it and it's not just some mean bully," he says. "It's like, 'We've got this philosophy,' Jung's 'Shadow,' so they're really sensitive and thinking people, (while) putting you through this psychological wringer."[/list][/size]
DannyB II:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---I think the story first off is a crock of shit and the person who posted it is drumming for drama.
Hey this is just my opinion, though.
--- End quote ---
Lol. Didn't realize I was "drumming for drama," but... hey, it's a lot better than drumming for MKP! :D
Despite your apparent familiarity with this case, it appears that you still have not read Chris Vogel's article, despite condemning it at every opportunity...
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---So because Chris Vogel, Investigative Journalist from the Houston Press in Houston,Tx. wrote a story with information primarily received from Michaels family and other unhappy customers, well then we should just believe everything.
I don't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here. I don't see any evidence supporting any wrong doing by MKP. What I see here is some very profoundly disappointed parents and sibling venting.
We have a snippet of Michaels life, who knows what went on in that mans life.
What is sad is Michael Scinto being used here for someones grandiose need to prove his point.
Hey try to get some documentation from a professional or this post is void.
Just my opinion, again.
--- End quote ---
Well... it seems ya musta missed this part, mentioning University of Houston Chair of Anthropology and former psychotherapist Norris Lang, color emphasis added:
"What it boils down to," says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, "is that they are doing group therapy, although they won't admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable."
Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.
"Some of the exercises that they had us engage in," he says, "were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities...in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It's kind of group therapy without any professionals involved."[/list][/size]
As well as this part, mentioning psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the UCLA's School of Medicine John Hochman; again, color emphasis added:
Dr. John Hochman, a psychiatrist and assistant clinical professor at the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, says he has seen a few patients who attended the retreat. One, he says, would not talk about it; another was scared to death.
"Some people can't deal with it," he says. "It rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test to me. The refrain of all these groups is that they're not therapy groups, they're something else. They're education, yeah, that's a good one."
He gets a chuckle out of the fact The ManKind Project uses parts of Jung and other well-known psychologists.
"What this does is give it a patina of credibility because there's a philosophy behind it and it's not just some mean bully," he says. "It's like, 'We've got this philosophy,' Jung's 'Shadow,' so they're really sensitive and thinking people, (while) putting you through this psychological wringer."[/list][/size]
--- End quote ---
Ursus,
Rick Ross says nothing really, Norris Lang is a psychotherapist (card reader), which you do not necessarily have to have a degree in and last the only real professional (psychiatrist), had no real comments on Michael Scinto case but rather just discussed he saw a few (2) random folks who attended a MKP weekend or something similar and went on to say the weekend was a psychological wringer.
Ursus there is nothing here but some random thoughts from two non professionals in the field of psychiatry and one that is, giving sporadic thoughts concerning MKP.
Keep scouring the country for more opinions because so far what you have, was not even worth posting.
This is nothing more then your "ragmag" propaganda, I wonder sometimes if that is how you make your living, chasing ambulances, so to speak (pun intended).
I had already read Rick Ross and Norris Lang but had not seen the insignificant info concerning this case (Michael Scinto) by your Doctor.
Like I said come up with something credible or void this thread.
Just my opinion.
T-Rex:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html
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T-Rex:
Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
Here are some of the dignitaries alum,
Becky Arnett (Michael Scinto's), his sister, took off from work and was able to access the group's internal Web site using her brother's password. She got a copy of the organization's local membership roster, which includes prominent doctors, lawyers and businessmen, as well as therapists and addiction specialists.
Some of the more surprising names included El Lago Mayor Brad Emel; Houston Ballet Foundation Director of Marketing and Communication Andrew Edmonson; artist Brooke Stroud of the Menil Collection; Marty Kelly of the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality; and University of Houston Chair of Anthropology Norris Lang.
Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle's name was also on the list. When contacted by the Press, he declined to comment.
Several days after Ralph Scinto buried his son, he began flipping through The ManKind Project's Houston membership roster, filled with names, phone numbers and addresses. Suddenly, he saw an address he recognized. It was a Roman Catholic church. As a Catholic himself, Ralph was stunned. Michael's entire family then began searching all 2,904 entries on the 2005 list to find out who it was that belonged to this secretive group.
They discovered that dozens upon dozens of priests, ministers, therapists, heads of companies, doctors, lawyers and people involved with addiction rehabilitation all had at one point attended The New Warrior Training Adventure.
"We said, 'Oh my God,'" recalls Kathy Scinto. "We couldn't believe it. All these people who belonged were in powerful positions. And they all deal with vulnerable people who could be convinced to go to this thing. It was really scary."
Of course, merely being listed is no indication of what exactly anyone who went to the retreat did. For instance, one of the people who talked with the Press said he didn't engage in the nudity.
The Scintos came to believe that the group seemed to target vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups and that its leaders appeared to practice psychology without a state license.
They were especially upset to find the names of several Roman Catholic priests on the roster and contacted the Galveston-Houston Archdiocese with this information.
Now, two years later, Scinto's parents, Kathy and Ralph, have filed a wrongful death lawsuit in Harris County against The ManKind Project Houston and Charles Kimberly Sawyer in an effort to uncover and expose once and for all what happened to their son, and why.
It almost sounds like the lead-in to an old joke: What do you get when you cross an ex-marine, a therapist and a business consultant?
Answer: The ManKind Project.
WOW THIS IS INTERESTING INFO, URSUS LEFT OUT!!!!!
Even so, in the years leading up to Michael's suicide, the 29-year-old plumber had been struggling with cocaine and alcohol. As far as his family knew, he had been clean for almost a year and a half up until the week of his death and was putting his life back together after a rocky 2004 during which Michael had bought a boat and a townhouse, only to have the bank foreclose because he was spending money on partying instead of making payments.
"He had psychological problems like anyone has who goes to AA," says Ralph. "He was drinking and drugging. He'd earn $5,000 and spend $10,000."
By the early part of 2005, it looked as though Michael had turned a corner. He was well into the Alcoholics Anonymous program, and had registered his new plumbing company with the Better Business Bureau, bought a new company truck, started a Web site, and had company pens and T-shirts printed up. Michael was forced to rent a less expensive apartment in Webster, but the upshot was it was closer to the Pearland Regional Airport, where Michael indulged his true passion in life, flying.
"He loved flying planes on the weekends," says Kathy, "and he was so optimistic, trying so hard to get his business going. But after the MKP weekend, it was all over. Something had changed."
Two days after Scinto returned from the retreat, he sought psychiatric help at Ben Taub Hospital, complaining of nightmares and painful memories since attending a men's workshop. According to the hospital report released by his family to the Press, Scinto began feeling better soon after checking in. The doctor wrote that Scinto claimed to have been sober for 16 months, but that he requested a tranquilizer. The doctor then scribbled the phrase "drug seeking" at the bottom of the report.
The Harris County Medical Examiner conducted Michael Scinto's autopsy, and concluded that his thoracic blood-alcohol level was 0.24, three times the legal limit to drive, and that he had used cocaine within an hour of his death. Kathy says that her son only began drinking again one week after returning from the retreat.
Still, Kathy Scinto believes the last words of her son, penned in the letter to Adams.
"It breaks our heart," she says, "to know that Michael tried so hard to get help and everybody turned him away."
The last time Kathy ever saw her son was two days after he had secretly sent the letter to the sheriff's office. It was also eight days before she would learn of his death. Scinto was supposed to serve as best man at his brother's wedding in two weeks, and went to meet his mother at a Schlotzsky's for lunch to discuss the upcoming event.
But that Sunday, she says, "Michael told me something he had never told me before. He said he thought he was sexually abused by several boys when he was about six years old."
Kathy Scinto had been in the dark about this, but apparently Sawyer was not. According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished. Sawyer told police that Scinto made the decision then to remain at the retreat.
But Ralph Scinto doesn't buy any of that.
"Michael felt anxiety after being forced to give over some deep secret in front of all those men," he says. "He couldn't handle it, or thought he shouldn't have told all those strangers. He was embarrassed and ashamed to divulge his secret. It made him feel bad, and he left there feeling even worse about himself."
Kathy Scinto then went to speak with a priest who was initiated the same weekend as her son.
About five months after the suicide, Ralph Scinto says he became short-tempered and difficult to live with, so he separated from his second wife and moved into a motel near Bush Intercontinental Airport. He is still there, as if frozen in time.
"I'm just floating, just existing," he says, chain-smoking menthol cigarettes inside an office at the motel. "I try every day not to think about it."
"I asked him, 'If I told everyone that you were dancing around naked, what do you think people would say?'" she recalls. "I asked him, 'How can a Catholic priest who is supposed to serve God go into the woods and do these pagan rituals?' He said he was invited to attend and that he doesn't have anything to do with it anymore."
The Press contacted several priests who were on the roster, all of whom declined to comment, referring questions to the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Bishop Joe Vasquez then issued a statement condemning the organization. In an e-mail, he wrote that the archdiocese became aware in late 2005 that priests were members of The ManKind Project. The then-archbishop, Joseph A. Fiorenza, "was concerned that elements of The ManKind Project and its New Warrior Training weekends seemed to reflect a New Age philosophy and were not in harmony with traditional Roman Catholic belief and practices," Vasquez wrote. "Archbishop Fiorenza issued a letter in January 2006 asking priests to refrain from being actively involved in the group or promoting" it. Vasquez says the current archbishop, Daniel N. DiNardo, maintains the same stance as his predecessor.
Mel Taylor, president and CEO of The Council on Alcohol and Drugs Houston, a publicly funded organization providing resources to people adversely affected by drugs and alcohol, is listed as a member. He did not return phone calls requesting comment; however, attorney Wade Quinn, also a member, speaking on Taylor's behalf, said the Council has no connection with the activities of The ManKind Project.
However, some therapists and addiction specialists actively recommend the organization to patients and clients.
George Joseph is a licensed chemical dependency counselor and founder of The Right Step drug rehab center, with locations in Texas, New Mexico and Louisiana. He says he has recommended The ManKind Project to many people.
Ursus:
--- Quote from: "T-Rex" ---Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.
--- End quote ---
They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."
Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).
This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
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