Re: HAPA

[DannyB II]

sk and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Or convert to Catholicism, take what you want, confess and be forgiven. Alternately "punch him in the throat" answers most of life's most difficult problems.

Or you can sit in the bleachers, stay angry and watch your family go by. "Get Up"

[DannyB II]

Ahh. Thanks for that bump.

I had planned to post the Michael Scinto story here, but apparently never got around to it. Scinto participated in the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the Mankind Project, and then committed suicide not too long after. The Houston Press did a story on this, along with a cover story / blog summarizing some of the pertinent details. Here's that cover story:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Houston Press Blogs
Cover Story: The ManKind Project
By Chris Vogel, Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 2:01PM



I was first introduced to a men's group called The ManKind Project while reading through a lawsuit filed against the organization in Harris County civil court. It described a weekend retreat north of Houston where men dress in black, wear face paint, and engage in rituals and exercises called "Cock Talk," and "Little Boy's Deepest Needs."

The ManKind Project is an international nonprofit organization that claims to offer men training: how to be accountable for yourself, how to express yourself, how to learn that being a man in today's world is okay. Men pay hundreds of dollars to attend a weekend initiation retreat, during which they engage in rituals – many in the nude – and delve into men's most intimate and personal issues.

Many men who attend the weekend swear the program changed their lives for the better. But not all. The Scinto family, who filed the lawsuit, claim their son attended the retreat in 2005, came home, and two weeks later took his own life because he could not handle the psychological stresses placed upon him during the weekend.

The family began investigating and discovered an underworld of critics who feel this self-help program – where men must sign confidentiality contracts and liability waivers to attend – has the potential to do harm. Critics, including the Scinto family, claim the organization appears to practice psychology without a state license, targets vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups, and has a poor vetting system with which to determine who is and who is not capable of dealing with the program.

With all its confidentiality agreements, The ManKind Project is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. In this week's feature, "Weekend Warriors," we chronicle the Scinto family's attempts to pull back the veil and show a side of The ManKind Project that's not seen in the organization's promotional films, two of which you can view below. -- Chris Vogel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdLLyRzbto

http://www.youtube.com/v/ubMzPZAX9h8


©2010 Houston Press, LP.

All this coming from a person who will not answer the question, has he ever attended the Weekend?
Oh my god someone died, we have no idea why, how or how come, we have a story from a set of parents traumatized by their sons death by suicide. Are we investigating his parents to see what kind of parents they were, was their a history of suicidal thoughts/actions, was he on medication of any kind. What was his past drug/alcohol history about ect....and so on and so on.
I attend at least 30 to 40 funerals a year due to suicide, half of those, the family of the suicide victim wants to sue someone. I knew a set of parents that wanted to sue the drug dealer for selling the heroin to their daughter, which eventually killed her.
The Weekend does not injure anyone intentionally, on average 15% of participants leave after the first day, they find that it is not for them.
   
Ursus thanks for the story.

[Ursus]

All this coming from a person who will not answer the question, has he ever attended the Weekend?
Oh my god someone died, we have no idea why, how or how come, we have a story from a set of parents traumatized by their sons death by suicide. Are we investigating his parents to see what kind of parents they were, was their a history of suicidal thoughts/actions, was he on medication of any kind. What was his past drug/alcohol history about ect....and so on and so on.
I attend at least 30 to 40 funerals a year due to suicide, half of those, the family of the suicide victim wants to sue someone. I knew a set of parents that wanted to sue the drug dealer for selling the heroin to their daughter, which eventually killed her.
The Weekend does not injure anyone intentionally, on average 15% of participants leave after the first day, they find that it is not for them.
   
Ursus thanks for the story.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that the ManKind Project injures folk intentionally, unless you're talking about folks' critical thinking abilities.  

[Ursus]

I often find that comments on these types of articles, both pro and con, frequently give you considerably more insight as to the true nature of what's going with said organization...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Comments on the above article, "Cover Story: The ManKind Project" (By Chris Vogel; Oct. 3 2007; Houston Press); #s 1-20:


james radcliffe says:

it is very sad that this guy killed himself, no doubt about that, my condolences to the family. However, I am a warrior and MOST of the stuff written in this article is just a bunch of lies! I went through the weekend and it was the most amazing experience I have ever had. I am also a recovering addict just like scinto and it ENHANCED my recovery tenfold. what people need to recognize is the guy RELAPSED, he RELAPSED, thats why he killed himself! He ingested coke and hour before death and his blood alcohol content was astronomical! We at the mankind project didn't kill him ,drugs killed him. Will you sue the manufacturers of the alcohol he ingested as well? how about the dealer he got the coke from? THATS WHO THEY NEED TO GO AFTER! We tried to help him and love him, nothing more.
Lastly, i am not sure where the press got it's info but I can assure you MOST of the crap you printed about our practices is TOTAL FABRICATION!

Posted On: Wednesday, Oct. 3 2007 @ 7:12PM[/list][/list]
Greg  says:

I went to this "training" in 2005. If you want to pay $650.00 to seriously screw yourself up, then I would encourage you to quickly join the Mankind Project. This is a pagan organization whose practices are similar to those of Wicca (along with other lovely rituals, processes, and ceremonies). Thus, if you would like to attend a group which worships the spirits of dead ancestors (necromancy), as well as mother earth/father sky spirits - - then again, I'm going to have to refer you to the Mankind Project. Otherwise, do yourself a huge favor and steer very clear of MKP.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 12:30AM[/list][/list]
RichardB says:

Having been through a NWT weekend, all I can say is: stay away. Stay way away. Anyone considering attending a NWT weekend should seriously question any organization that is so cloaked in secrecy, and requires participants to basically sign away any post-weekend rights.

MOST IMPORTANT: If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.

Above all, caveat emptor.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:18AM[/list][/list]
S. Byers says:

Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:56AM[/list][/list]
gale says:

After you read the article and posts, please watch the videos. Seek out a warrior or come to the mankind project and find out for yourself. Our mission is simple...to heal men, one at a time. We are about saving lives. Men are dying every day needlessly. Not because of the work we do but because they need this work. All men need this work. Period.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 10:19AM[/list][/list]
S Byers says:

Whilst men may need something - they do NOT need the abuse MKP throws at them. Personally I would recommend the Human Awareness Institute which bases its workshops on promoting LOVE, TOLERANCE AND RESPECT. Concepts unknown in MKP. And no-one had died after attending HAI, unlike MKP.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 10:47AM[/list][/list]
RichardB says:

In my earlier comment, I neglected to do two things:

1) Thank the Houston Press for this expose that, from my own experience, is pretty much spot-on.

2) In case the article wasn't clear enough, there is a very VERY strong sexual component to the NWT weekend. Anyone struggling with sexual issues of any type would be strongly advised to avoid MKP at any costs.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 11:56AM[/list][/list]
Chris says:

Stay away from MKP. I speak from experience. Fortunately some friends at church helped me see the abuse, while I was in denial. I really wanted to be accepted by these men, so I put up with the leaders' control tactics.

Definitely agree about not carpooling and having a key hidden. You are meant to feel trapped, vulnerable and a lot of peer pressure to conform.

I left the movement a couple years ago, but a good friend stayed in. His marriage is a mess, he's struggling more and more with same-sex attraction, and if anything, all the money and time he's put into MKP weekends and I (Integration) Groups is not helping.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 12:39PM[/list][/list]
S Byers says:

From a homo-erotic point of view MKP is designed to turn men from being straight into gay. It does this by acustomising them to accept sensitive touch from other guys (including mutual fondling of dicks in the sweat lodge), and into believing that only men can provide emotional support to men, and that women are evil. The secrecy is deliberately designed to cause conflicts in marriages. Yet in trusting marriages there should be no secrets between partners, yet MKP insists that there should be. The involvement of the Catholic Church is even more surprising, but then I believe that a lot of Catholic priets are closet gays. What goes on at a typical MKP weekend can be found at

http://www.googlegroups.com - sci.psychology.psychotherapy
and then search for 'mankind project'

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 5:30PM[/list][/list]
Considering Mankind project. says:

What is the name of the Cult leader who is getting his pockets lined with money over the Man Kind Project?

Also, what kind of physical abuse takes place?

Is a person encouraged to engage in homosexual activies, like anal sex, and oral sex, (giving and receiving)?

Please advise.

Thank you.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 7:27PM[/list][/list]
JR Randall says:

I attended the weekend several years ago. I am no longer active in the organization.
Although I agree that there is an element of psychotherapy that takes place, there is no "abuse", "Wicca rituals", "promotion of homosexuality" or connection with the Catholic Church in any way, shape or form.
The organization tries to help men through an intense encounter process. It isn't for everyone but there is no malice involved.
As it turns out, there are a number of licensed psychotherapists involved in the organization and it is not a group of untrained people who present the weekend.
The process has its positives and negatives but there is no truth whatsoever to many of the absurd and outrageous accusations I've read in these postings.

Posted On: Friday, Oct. 5 2007 @ 8:13PM[/list][/list]
B.A. Bragg says:

I attended the weekend two years ago, as have a number of men from the evangelical church I attend. I am the only gay one among them, and there is no effort to change a man's sexual orientation. It is a weekend that provides the unique opportunity for men - gay and straight - to be together as men - in a carefully structured experience that helps men look deep within themselves, to get beyond the mental gymnastics we all do every day, and to find healing on an emotional / experiential level. It did more for me than therapy ever did.

I am in recovery as well. It is very sad that this man killed himself. Drugs and booze often kill, whether slowly or quickly. The parents are misguided to try to lay blame on the weekend. Their son was unstable, period.

MKP is NOT a religious weekend. There are egos involved, but then that is true ANYWHERE!

Weekends like this exist in many forms all over the place. It's a free country damnit. Ever heard of "Burning Man" in Las Vegas? Now that's a crazy event, or so I hear.

As it turns out, there are a number of licensed psychotherapists involved in the organization and it is not a group of untrained people who present the weekend. There is always a physician on the weekend, and safety is a priority. Sometimes the activities are a bit physical and, in the age of liability, it is only prudent to have waivers signed.

A lot of what is mentioned above is just patent falsehood, and likely related to individual anger and personality clashes rather than the substance of the orgainzation.

MKP Houston is a for profit chapter of MKP. While the weekends are expensive, there are also scholarships provided, as well as payment plans. Hell, therapy is $100 a session. So what is $650.

Posted On: Friday, Oct. 5 2007 @ 11:35PM[/list][/list]
WOW! says:

This is a tragic story in so many ways. AA works for people who are willing to do what it takes to stay sober. The Warrior weekend works for men who are willing to do the work. If youre not then you can certainly leave I saw a few leave. Even the men who didnt leave who were still scheptical left unsatisfied as for me I was thoroughly enlightened.

My weekend was rewarding and positive. I did meet men who did not care for it and they were never threatened after leaving. The narrow roads into the ranch appeared very dangerous if anyone left by foot it would be difficult and dangerous to traverse; probably the reason for the "stay on property" clause. I remember having to park in the culvert so that cars could pass us; parking WAS NOT plentiful. If youve ever lived or been on a ranch then youre no stranger to thin dirt roads.

It was very uncomfortable to ride with a person I did not know. We showed late as well.. and we paid for it haha (inside joke for MKP). He actually wanted to leave and I told him he could leave me because I knew some of the men there and I could ride with them. After a few moments being alone he decided to stay when other men left.

Whatever Michael Scinto went through was not what was intended nor was it like anything I experienced moreover, he was not honest about his psychological condition. I was honest and thurough I was treated accordingly. All I know is the men that I went in to the training with were my brothers in AA and are now my fraternal brothers in the MKP.

I am a religious person and what I got from the training was not pagan it was purely an adventure in the traditions of how ancient men bonded positively. I am no longer an active member of Warriors but I love sharing my stories with other former members who I see often in the rooms of AA. I do not share the intimate details of my adventure with people because they can be taken seriously out of context which has obviously happened. Not only that but I enjoy the fact that I can still share the experience with my brothers in MKP.

Being in AA for so many years I have seen many people die from alcoholism and that is honestly what it sounds like Mr Scinto died of. Maybe it was the guilt of the outrageous indictment of the MKP to the sherrifs department? Unfortunately this negative incident keeps multiplying into even more negative allegations which fuel the fires of more negative reactions to a very positive mens organization.

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 4:20AM[/list][/list]
Joey Johansen says:

Greg says:

This is a pagan organization whose practices are similar to those of Wicca (along with other lovely rituals, processes, and ceremonies). Thus, if you would like to attend a group which worships the spirits of dead ancestors (necromancy), as well as mother earth/father sky spirits

Posted at: October 4, 2007 12:30 AM

--------------------------------------------
JOEY'S COMMENT: I am not a member of MKP but have several friends who are. Contrary to what Greg claims, all of these men belong to the same church or temple that they attended prior to their involvement in MKP. None of them were "converted" to "paganism." All of them tell me that MKP does incorporate some spiritual traditions of cultures other than Judeo-Christian, e.g., Native American traditions, but that they don't see these rituals as contradicting their Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religious beliefs.

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:24AM[/list][/list]
Anonymous says:

RichardB says:

If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.

Above all, caveat emptor.

Posted at: October 4, 2007 9:18 AM

--------------------------------------------
JOEY'S COMMENT: The MKP men I know all said that when men left their training weekend they either called someone to pick them up--using a phone provided by the MKP staff--or MKP staff members gave them a ride to the airport (if they came from out of town).

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:26AM[/list][/list]
Joey Johansen says:

S. Byers said on October 4, 2007 at 9:56 AM:

Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

---------------------------------------------
JOEY'S COMMENT: It's hard to comment on S. Byers melodramatic diatribe but I'll make two points: 1) It takes 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-9 years (depending on the specialty) of residency and fellowship to become a surgeon--an example of how loose with the facts is S. Byers; 2) If he had read the entire article, S. Byers would have learned that the local Catholic archdiocese discourages priests from attending the MKP weekend--another example of S. Byers' sloppy research.

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:29AM[/list][/list]
Joey Johansen says:

S Byers said on October 4, 2007 at 10:47 AM:

Whilst men may need something - they do NOT need the abuse MKP throws at them. Personally I would recommend the Human Awareness Institute which bases its workshops on promoting LOVE, TOLERANCE AND RESPECT. Concepts unknown in MKP. And no-one had died after attending HAI, unlike MKP.

---------------------------------------------
JOEY'S COMMENT: I have heard good things about the Human Awareness Institute. I've also heard good things about MKP, including the fact that love, tolerance, and respect are values emphasized throughout MKP. Did you know that their leaders are required to take an intensive diversity training workshop that emphasizes understanding and appreciating people with different backgrounds--race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, class, etc.? That's just one of several facts that would have been included in an unbiased article by an ethical journalist.

By the way, I would disagree with the Gale (October 4, 2007 10:19 AM) who said that all men need MKP. Although I have many friends who are members, I have chosen not to attend because I have done a lot of men's work, personal growth workshops, spiritual retreats, etc. over the years and felt that it would be repetitious for me.

Another group that I wouldn't recommend MKP to would be fundamentalists of any religion given the MKP ethos of appreciating native people's spiritual practices. In my experience most fundamentalists believe that their religion is the only "true" religion and they belittle other spiritual or religious practices.

With regard to the alleged harshness of the MKP weekend, I had to laugh when I read that. Seriously, what the guys in MKP go through on a weekend is a picnic compared to anyone who's been through boot camp.

I was a basic Army grunt and I wouldn't want to repeat boot camp (although I think it serves its purpose and is necessary). One of my MKP friends was in the Marine Corps and and another was an Army Ranger and they both also couldn't suppress a laugh at the alleged "abuse" and harsh conditions of the MKP weekend. One remarked, "if that guy thinks the MKP weekend is tough, I'd like to see him last 3 days with some of the young guys enduring Special Ops training. He'd probably be crying for his mama within the first few hours."

Okay, I admit my friend is a "man's man" kind of guy and I don't always agree with how he says things but he has a point: The MKP weekend is not physically taxing and it is not abusive at all. There is nothing like a drill sergeant screaming in your face that you are a "filthy maggot scumbag" at an MKP weekend!

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:50AM[/list][/list]
Joey Johansen says:

---------------------------------------------
RichardB said on October 4, 2007 at 11:56 AM

... In case the article wasn't clear enough, there is a very VERY strong sexual component to the NWT weekend. Anyone struggling with sexual issues of any type would be strongly advised to avoid MKP at any costs.
---------------------------------------------

JOEY'S COMMENT: On the contrary, many of my friends have shared with me how much the MKP weekend and men's groups have *helped* them with sexual issues. One of my friends is gay and the other five are heterosexual. They all tell me that they were never encouraged to touch each other's genitals and that some men chose to keep some clothing on during the "cock talk"--no one was forced to be nude, although I frankly don't see the big deal about the nudity and talking openly about sexual issues. Sheesh! We are such a puritanical, repressed society!

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 9:57AM[/list][/list]
Joey Johansen says:

---------------------------------------------
S Byers went on another fantasy-filled rant on October 4, 2007 at 5:30 PM:

From a homo-erotic point of view MKP is designed to turn men from being straight into gay. It does this by acustomising them to accept sensitive touch from other guys (including mutual fondling of dicks in the sweat lodge), and into believing that only men can provide emotional support to men, and that women are evil. The secrecy is deliberately designed to cause conflicts in marriages. Yet in trusting marriages there should be no secrets between partners, yet MKP insists that there should be. The involvement of the Catholic Church is even more surprising, but then I believe that a lot of Catholic priets are closet gays.
---------------------------------------------

Wow, this S. Byers guy (I'm assuming he's male) is a hoot! What a creative imagination.

Ironically, what Byers doesn't know--because, like the HP reporter, he looks only for information that supports his preconceived notions--is that several "ex-gay" organizations recommend MKP to help men struggling with "Same Sex Attraction" (SSA), as they call it. I don't think these SSA groups would recommend MKP to their members if they thought that MKP would encourage them to be homosexual!

MKP does not encourage its members to keep secrets from their spouses. MKP does not think women are evil, in fact they emphasize cherishing one's spouse and bringing more love and passion into one's marriage.

Finally, S. Byers' anti-Catholic prejudice is obvious in his posts. Yet another example of his one-sided approach to this issue.

Now, lest you accuse me of being biased in favor of MKP, I should note the following:

1) As I mentioned earlier I am not an MKP member; rather, I have seen the positive results of MKP membership in several of my friends;

2) I don't assume that MKP didn't make any mistakes. Perhaps their screening process was not thorough enough and they should have identified the fact that Mr. Scinto suffered from a serious mental illness and excluded him from participation. Maybe they didn't make it clear enough that he could leave and they would help him find transportation to leave. I obviously don't know the answer to these questions but they will hopefully become clear as the legal process unfolds.

3) I wonder if maybe MKP should disclose a little more about what occurs on a weekend so that, for example, guys who are sensitive about other men seeing their bodies or who believe that Native American spiritual practices are bogus "pagan" rituals will choose not to participate. Although I guess with the publication of this Houston Press article and other sources of (mis)information, a lot of the weekend activities won't be a secret anymore!

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 10:25AM[/list][/list]
Paul G says:

My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day.
My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men.
It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.

Posted On: Saturday, Oct. 6 2007 @ 10:55AM[/list][/list]



©2010 Houston Press, LP.

[DannyB II]

Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post.
What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle.  
Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought???
I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever.
Thank-you Ursus

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

RichardB says:

Having been through a NWT weekend, all I can say is: stay away. Stay way away. Anyone considering attending a NWT weekend should seriously question any organization that is so cloaked in secrecy, and

requires participants to basically sign away any post-weekend rights.  :eek:

MOST IMPORTANT: If anyone does choose to do one of these weekends, do not - I repeat - do not carpool. Drive yourself. Tape a key to the undercarriage of your car or the tirewell. Before you go, buy a cheap pre-pay cell phone, and leave it in your car.

Above all, caveat emptor.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:18AM[/list][/list]
S. Byers says:

Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities.

I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.)   (wow....any of that sound familiar?....AB) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

[Anne Bonney]

I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.

You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.

[Ursus]

I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.

You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.

Lol. Either that, or the veracity of his sooper seekret info is about on par with his claims to be 30 minutes away from ya so "let's get together and talk, you and me" (paraphrase quite sanitized), whenever he doesn't like what you're posting about!  

My guess is that Danny didn't like me asking the following (as yet unanswered) question regarding Danny's experience with the New Warrior Training Adventure in another thread, material in quotes being from his previous post on the subject:

Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:

"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]

Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...

Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?

[Anne Bonney]

I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left.

You sure do spend a lot of time trying to dig up information on posters here.

Lol. Either that, or the veracity of his sooper seekret info is about on par with his claims to be 30 minutes away from ya so "let's get together and talk, you and me" (paraphrase quite sanitized), whenever he doesn't like what you're posting about!  

My guess is that Danny didn't like me asking the following (as yet unanswered) question regarding Danny's experience with the New Warrior Training Adventure in another thread, material in quotes being from his previous post on the subject:

Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:

"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]

Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...

Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?

New Warrior Training!!!

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:

[Ursus]

Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post.
What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle.

I'm sure there is some leeway exercised in interpreting the NWTA training manual, whether intentional or unintentional, officially sanctioned or not. Fwiw, here's an account from a woman describing her husband's reaction to such an event; third hand account that it is, ya can interpret it as you see fit:

"They were all in the sweat lodge on Sunday," she says, "which he actually enjoyed. It was the first moment he had to relax in days after going through such a high-drama weekend where they pound you to reveal your deep, dark stuff. So, everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, 'If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother's dick. If your brother doesn't want your hand there, he can remove it.' Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out."[/list]

Given those onerous confidentially agreements that everyone has to sign, how would anyone ever know how just how unique or how pervasive such an event might be? Maybe it was just that one facilitator. Maybe not.

--------------

Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought???
I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever.

Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?

[DannyB II]

Ursus, wherever you get your information to satisfy your arguments is anyone's guess. I received some information the other day concerning Ursus, which was interesting and come to find out Ursus did attend a Warrior Workshop, found it to be offensive and left. It appears that the posting he has provided are of the workshop he attended, no where else has anyone heard of males fondling other males. Bravo you pervert, thanks for one more jaded post.
What happened Ursus, you went looking for a boyfriend and you got your ass kicked for fondling somebody, you became confused when they said hold hands, in the circle.

I'm sure there is some leeway exercised in interpreting the NWTA training manual, whether intentional or unintentional, officially sanctioned or not. Fwiw, here's an account from a woman describing her husband's reaction to such an event; third hand account that it is, ya can interpret it as you see fit:

"They were all in the sweat lodge on Sunday," she says, "which he actually enjoyed. It was the first moment he had to relax in days after going through such a high-drama weekend where they pound you to reveal your deep, dark stuff. So, everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, 'If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother's dick. If your brother doesn't want your hand there, he can remove it.' Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out."[/list]

Given those onerous confidentially agreements that everyone has to sign, how would anyone ever know how just how unique or how pervasive such an event might be? Maybe it was just that one facilitator. Maybe not.

--------------

Listen I don't know about anyone else here but your attempts at investigation are rather amateurish and well (stupid) really. You are a clown, Ursus. Your posts are so clearly biased, why do you even write/paste them. Have you ever had a balanced thought???
I did the weekend that is already on the record, I have had nothing more to do with the ManKind Corp. after that weekend other then to talk with other men who attended. They have follow up groups you can attend after, I chose to not attend. In twenty years I have never heard of anyone fondling another participant in circle, ever.

Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?

This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK.
Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus??
It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....
I must learn not to be dragged into your narcissistic fantasies of being the great "Advocater." No one has that much authenticity/integrity.
Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:

[Anne Bonney]

This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK.
Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus??

Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign.  Crazy, I know.

It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....

Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used.  What you've described above, are accidents.

Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:

Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof?  Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims.  What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?

[Ursus]

Well, for someone who allegedly has had nothing more to do with the Mankind Project for two decades you sure do seem to speak with some authority when it comes to how that organization is run, right down to procedural protocol in each and every chapter, and right up to present day events, eh?

This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK.
Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus??

Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign.  Crazy, I know.

Yep, you reckoned rightly, Anne. I think S. Byers said it pretty well in his/her comment earlier:

S. Byers says:

Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to unwitting participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what is really going on. The fact that Catholic priests are involved is even more unacceptable - but then the Catholic Church is not exactly squeaky clean over abuse is it? And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

Posted On: Thursday, Oct. 4 2007 @ 9:56AM[/list][/list][/list]

It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....

Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used.  What you've described above, are accidents.

Lol. Puhlease, Danny. With logic like that, who needs teh law? See S. Byers comment above.

Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:

Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof?  Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims.  What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?

Well, Danny, it seems that you or whoever from those "20 guys" is helping you with your posts here ... failed to fully read my previous post. And like I said, "ya can interpret it as you see fit." Kinda curious that you're getting all bent out of shape 'bout me quoting from some article, doncha think?

[DannyB II]

This is true Ursus I do yet You would have to admit the same (oh that's right you claim the higher ground, when you claim nothing at all) with your assertions and facts concerning MK.
Why are we arguing a benign circumstance, Ursus??

Just a guess, but maybe he doesn't consider it to be benign.  Crazy, I know.
 
I was being fictitious.....though I can see where I did not really let anyone know this.

It is tragic when anyone dies but guess what I am sure someone else will die, maybe falling down walking to the circle, some psycho will go "postal", somebody may get stung by a bee, bit by a snake, attacked by a bear ect....

Well, this death may be directly attributed to the methods that were used.  What you've described above, are accidents.

I did not see where that was abundantly clear, either Anne. As a matter of fact nothing is really clear except that we have a death.

Ursus these comments concerning grabbing another mans penis is all from your workshop, so why are you inferring that I/we explain it. "You", explain why your weekend moved/shifted to a effeminate intimacy between men, where it was OK to fondle each other genitals. I have had, at least 20 guys look at this post and no one I mean no one has heard of this. What the fuck are you bringing to the table, pussy boy...... :roflmao:

Oh...so your "20 guys" is somehow considered proof?  Shit, anyone can make anonymous claims.  What is it exactly that you're asking of Ursus?

Anne, my comments above clarify what I am asking Ursus.