psy

[HG]

exactly, if it's suicide, it's "shameful" for the family. That's because it implicates them, in some way.

FUCK THE FAMILIES.

I hear ya.  But life is a messy thing.  Dont think any are arguing with ya on THIS one. Think Urs was trying for some general thoughts, when it comes to being sensitive about suicide.  Me, I say go fer it.

[Anonymous]

I had a friend who died a few years after she graduated from one of these TBSs.  They said it was an accident, but I never really believed that.  Maybe it was sort of an accident, but her frame of mind was like she had failed at life, and how much did THAT contribute, huh?  She failed at life because she didn't live up to the programs expectations.  Well, she's gone now.  And her little girl is growing up without her mother.

[Che Gookin]

Right then. I'm all for creating a fund for building a memorial to honor every single one of them.

[Anonymous]

exactly, if it's suicide, it's "shameful" for the family. That's because it implicates them, in some way.

FUCK THE FAMILIES.

I hear ya.  But life is a messy thing.  Dont think any are arguing with ya on THIS one. Think Urs was trying for some general thoughts, when it comes to being sensitive about suicide.  Me, I say go fer it.

yes, i hope it didn't come off like i was trying to insult him, or be argumentitive, Sorry. Suicide is not shameful for the kid, only the parents/ "program" that drove him to it. I hate the idea that, like, it's something like being a pedophile, and needs to be kept secret, for the sake of the victim.

[psy]

When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.

I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.

This is totally wrong.  You should speak to the family first.  You are all getting as bad as Deborah.  Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone.  Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families.  We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control.  It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.


...

Um.  From the people i've talked to (if it isn't already self-evident) the kid wasn't exactly a fan of Benchmark.  If I had his full name, i'd post it, but for now "George" will have to do.  But what about the parents?  I'd love to talk to them.  If posting a name would somehow initiate that dialogue (in whatever capacity) it would probably be good, not bad (well, maybe for Benchmark).  If I were the parents, I would have filed a wrongful death suit, and that still might be possible.

[Anonymous]

Maybe he is remembered very well.  As far as we know all the people that loved him remember him every day and cherish the time they had with him.  

Why should you be the one to decide if his name should be posted all over the internet?

Or maybe not. Maybe his family remember him the way Chris Landry's family did by setting up a fund to help more kids to an early grave. People can be quite delusional that way; especially when dealing with deep, dark and complicated matters like the death of a child and their own culpability in it.

Shit, I actually have some sympathy for these people. I just lost my best beloved dog. She got clipped on the road, probably running deer late one night. On the one hand, I was the one to let her out and I didn't miss her and go looking for her when I shut down the house. If I had just noticed and called her she would have come. She was that good a dog. It was my fault and I'll never forget it and I don't take offence at all when neighbours tell the story as a cautionary tale to other dog owners.

But she rarely wandered off in her 5 years, never in the most recent ones. So why should I think to check and see if she had that night? These are mollifying truths, but still I know I didn't miss her, wasn't paying attention and that's why she's gone from me.

And she was just a dog. A good dog, the best, but not my child really. I can hardly imagine what it must be like for these parents. I do have a great deal of compassion and concern for them. But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

Should we post your name on here, were you a victim?  How about Anne Bonney, she was a victim.. should we take a vote and post her name? (Sorry Anne, didnt mean to single you out) or is this something that just you should decide?


...

Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.

Ginger McNulty

[TheWho]

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

First I think it is wrong to exploit people who don’t want to be and to have their names and pictures placed on the web.  I didn’t think it was right for people to have plastered Niles picture everywhere.  I don’t think it is right to take pictures of these young kids trying to get their careers going helping other children and to repost them here for ridicule and for their family and friends to have to endure.  It is true that the pictures were already on the internet, but it isn’t right to misuse it….. purely just my opinion.

I don’t think the boys death should remain a secret at all.  It is not up to me.  I have known families who have had children who took their own life and the families feel great remorse and somewhat responsible, maybe.  These deaths seem to always be treated differently…..no right up in the paper about how he enjoyed sports, or video games or how he helped others as you typically see if the class president dies in a car accident.  Maybe it is a stigma, I cant relate because it never happened to me but I have witnessed the shades come down and the silence and distance that is implied and asked for when a death like this occurs.

Unless you know the boys family would be okay with it, I wouldn’t do it.  Maybe they would be moved by your understanding and remembrance, maybe they blame the school or maybe they have reason to suspect it had nothing to do with Benchmark.  But I wouldn’t take it upon yourself to use this boys death to further a personal cause behind a veil of compassion.

Unless the boy left a note none of us will ever know what caused him to take his own life.

Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.

That is your choice, Ginger.  If you wanted to remain anonymous I think people should respect that.  
“Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identityâ€

[Ursus]

"Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identity?"  I am not sure what you mean.

I believe she was asking whether you had the balls you were born with, or something else along the lines of equating scrotal size with courage.

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

Deaths ARE under-investigated, and under-reported.  Especially those involving suicide, or where there is potential suicidal involvement.  These are dirty secrets that those who want to maintain the status quo are never happy about having aired in the disinfecting sunlight.

[Anonymous]

Do you know that George's family sent him on a suicide mission? If so, they deserve your punishments. If not, let them grieve without making matters worse for them.

[Ursus]

Do you know that George's family sent him on a suicide mission? If so, they deserve your punishments. If not, let them grieve without making matters worse for them.

I hardly think shining the light on this problem has the primary intention of "punishment."  People are just not putting 2 and 2 together.  The more this is aired, the more likely they will be able to in the future.  How about thinking of George's family as being tragically uninformed consumers, does that make it any clearer?

Sorry to be so crass...

[Anonymous]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think it is right to take pictures of these young kids trying to get their careers going helping other children and to repost them here for ridicule and for their family and friends to have to endure. It is true that the pictures were already on the internet, but it isn’t right to misuse it….. purely just my opinion.

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Humor is one way to make a point, but not the overriding motivation for most of the content on these fora. You assume that that's the primary motive and you are incorrect.

Unless the boy left a note none of us will ever know what caused him to take his own life.

True enough. There is no more certain bar against enlightenment than contempt prior to investigation. But the suicide rate in TC/LGAT style programs is something around 5 - 20 times the national average. This is worthy of investigation.

Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.

That is your choice, Ginger.  If you wanted to remain anonymous I think people should respect that.  
...[/quote]

I was responding to this

Should we post your name on here, were you a victim? How about Anne Bonney, she was a victim.. should we take a vote and post her name? (Sorry Anne, didnt mean to single you out) or is this something that just you should decide?

“Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identityâ€

[Ursus]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

It is not phoney baloney compassion.  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life?  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

[Anonymous]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

It is not phoney baloney compassion.  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life?  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?  

You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.

Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.

You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.

[Anonymous]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

It is not phoney baloney compassion.  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life?  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?  

You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.

Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.

You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.

Torturer, we have proof. Psy survived benchmark, and can post about the treatment of it's prisoners. That's proof, you horrible  human being.

You can't set up a "thought reform" prison, based on degrading and destroying the mental processes and emotional well being of a kid, and then claim no responsibility when the kid commits suicide as a result of their "restructured brain."

YOU don't want to admit the truth, as it implicates you in murder. But, outside of YOUR cult, it's not to hard "convincing people" of what is only too obvious.

ps. a mother was put in jail for forcing her 18 year old daughter to work as a stripper. Your kind will be too, someday.