willful suspension of disbelief

[psy]

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[Anonymous]

If [5% suicide attempt] is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know?

Yes, it's pretty close to true based on the best available calculation of the number of kids in Synanon/Stepcraft/LGAT type placements hashed against the number of reported suicide attempts/completions. No the rate would not go up w/o the program. This becomes obvious to anyone w/ an attention span longer than that of a cocker spaniel puppy once we factor in that there is no significant difference in terms of actual dysfunction between the unfortunate souls who receive 'help' from your coven and those who, blessedly, escape your benevolence.

If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths?
...

Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.

This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.

 :jerry:

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[psy]

one of my fave topics ... bump

[Anne Bonney]

What I'm reading

Ginger mentioned this to me when we were talking.

Maintaining a believing attitude is a very human thing to do, especially when the alternative requires giving up something even more important to an individual than rationality. A believing attitude basically requires cultivating what is known as the "willful suspension of disbelief". This means that people will see what they want to see, and will ignore or minimize those facts that would lead to an opposite conclusion.

I don’t want to imply that this sort of behavior applies only to Christians, or even only to religious people. I think that many a scientist, while trying to sustain a pet theory, has applied the willful suspension of disbelief and ignored uncomfortable facts that might point to a differing conclusion. It is human to do this.

Nevertheless, ignoring the plain facts is stupid, IMO.  Pride should not get in the way of the truth.  This could be true of TheWho or it could be true of me as he would surely accuse me, however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used.  He's pushing an irrelevant point.  How many suicides aren't reported.  I got more than one on my video tape and evidence of a bunch more...  How does six months on average sound with a population of about 20 sound?

discuss

This was a really good one.

[Anne Bonney]

getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible.
To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use. But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so.
 I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.

Just my 2 cents

 :bump:

[DannyB II]

I was reading this thread a rather interesting one at that and one thing keeps jumping out at me. What if??
What if all the programs, schools, centers..ect... were all shut down today, banished for life. There will be no more modalities of the kind we have seen, everything will be wiped clean, were starting over. You have one year to come up with your thought and action.

There are 3 things that are existing you must cover in your idea.

1. The children that have been released due to the programs being closed need to be indoctrinated back into society.
2.Parents/Guardians have to be managed accordingly due to their child coming back, some did not want the responsibility to begin with others were intimidated by their child while others were hoodwinked by recruiters/programs. Then some just bought the whole package.
3. Developing a strategy for dealing with this still possibly troubled child along with parents.
 
I am not assuming their is anything to be done in any of these 3 situations, I just felt it made sense their would be some work.
I'm almost of the opinion this whole ball of muck was made up in some quackhouse to make money, (I mean from the beginning with no thought of empathy towards helping anyone just pure capitalism) yeah some guy was sitting around going hmmmm....got all these junkies over here and if I can find a place to house them for $15,000.00 a year, well I can make some money. Off and running they were, all the way in 45 yrs to these grandiose names like such n such Academy that have these new fangle ideas of running around outside in your britches chasing snakes, this will definitely fix your son.
I thought this would generate more conversation and you would be helping me out with this nagging thought of well "What Then". There are literally what half to a million kids in treatment through out the United States, what would happen to them.
Danny
P.S. These was a test-tube to generate more ideas for this basic lab test. :shamrock:

[Oz girl]

I can answer this danny. The US would have to deal with delinquent/drug taking/rabble rousing/mentally ill/insert random ailment here kids in the same way that Britain, most of europe, Australia and New Zealand and any latin american country does. All of these countries have kids and families struggling through adolescence and mostly coming out the other end OK. When you also consider that the sheer cost of even a bargain basement program like WWASP means that the kids are by default mostly middle class it further weakens the pro program argument  as adolescent middle class "rebels" from most parts of the world are statistically the ones least likely to fall through the cracks. It just sometimes means natural consequences are a little more real. IE if you get expellled from your posh private school and your parents cant get you in anywwhere else, you go to a public one. If you dick around taking drugs when you should be studying and get really shit grades you either have to repeat year 12 or you dont get into university right from school. So you either work  for a couple of years and apply after 21 or you decide higher education is not for you. Either way our life is not eternally ruined.

Granted there are some things that make it harder for American families, like zero tolerance policing and in some states hysterical sex laws that put kids on sex registers for pretty benign behaviors, but these did not always exist and can be changed if enough people do something.

To people who say a program was the only choice I liken programs to mobile or smart phones. It genuinely feels to me like I cant live without my smartphone. But for the first 20 or so years of my life i did great without it. If it were taken away I can still be reached by skype, im  and at 3 email addresses. So while it feels to me like I cant in actual fact I can and there are people and places in the world where the thing is completely unnecessary.

[Oz girl]

Sorry to post twice, Danny mentioned something about therapy optiond for kids coming out of programs. This is imagine is quite a conundrum. GIven that some kids in programs are there due to genuine existing problems and then some others develop issues because of the trauma they suffered, id  guess many do need some form of proper effective treatment. But many have spoken of being put off by the very idea of therapy because of their horrible experiences.

Those who read Julia scheeres Jesus Camp may be familiar with this. The Brother David became depressed and was self harming(probably because his asshole dad would regularly beat the crap out of him) His parents were more interested in getting rid of "the problem" than helping their son and sent him to be punished at escuele caribe & his sister only began to become rebellious when her only household ally was banished so she was sent there as well. She does not say whetner he got help for his initial symptoms when he left and he died in a car accident at 20 so nobody can ask, but she mentioned feelings consistent with pTSD after escuele caribe. S

[DannyB II]

RE: willful suspension of disbelief

New postby Oz girl » Yesterday, 00:19
I can answer this danny. The US would have to deal with delinquent/drug taking/rabble rousing/mentally ill/insert random ailment here kids in the same way that Britain, most of europe, Australia and New Zealand and any latin american country does. All of these countries have kids and families struggling through adolescence and mostly coming out the other end OK. When you also consider that the sheer cost of even a bargain basement program like WWASP means that the kids are by default mostly middle class it further weakens the pro program argument as adolescent middle class "rebels" from most parts of the world are statistically the ones least likely to fall through the cracks. It just sometimes means natural consequences are a little more real. IE if you get expellled from your posh private school and your parents cant get you in anywwhere else, you go to a public one. If you dick around taking drugs when you should be studying and get really shit grades you either have to repeat year 12 or you dont get into university right from school. So you either work for a couple of years and apply after 21 or you decide higher education is not for you. Either way our life is not eternally ruined.

Granted there are some things that make it harder for American families, like zero tolerance policing and in some states hysterical sex laws that put kids on sex registers for pretty benign behaviors, but these did not always exist and can be changed if enough people do something.

To people who say a program was the only choice I liken programs to mobile or smart phones. It genuinely feels to me like I cant live without my smartphone. But for the first 20 or so years of my life i did great without it. If it were taken away I can still be reached by skype, im and at 3 email addresses. So while it feels to me like I cant in actual fact I can and there are people and places in the world where the thing is completely unnecessary.

User avatar
Oz girl
   
Re: willful suspension of disbelief

New postby Oz girl » Yesterday, 03:49
Sorry to post twice, Danny mentioned something about therapy optiond for kids coming out of programs. This is imagine is quite a conundrum. GIven that some kids in programs are there due to genuine existing problems and then some others develop issues because of the trauma they suffered, id guess many do need some form of proper effective treatment. But many have spoken of being put off by the very idea of therapy because of their horrible experiences.

Those who read Julia scheeres Jesus Camp may be familiar with this. The Brother David became depressed and was self harming(probably because his asshole dad would regularly beat the crap out of him) His parents were more interested in getting rid of "the problem" than helping their son and sent him to be punished at escuele caribe & his sister only began to become rebellious when her only household ally was banished so she was sent there as well. She does not say whetner he got help for his initial symptoms when he left and he died in a car accident at 20 so nobody can ask, but she mentioned feelings consistent with pTSD after escuele caribe. S

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
 
Man thanks a lot for the info OZ,
Was kinda hoping for more feed back but,  1.) I'm not very liked right now. 2.) Really not very liked right now or ever.  3.) I guess it is to much to consider since it is idealistic.
Well folks I still think this could have been a good conversation, Yeahhhhh maybe another time....lol.


Oz,
Yes America is a much different animal when considering helping their children. I believe the intent is sincere but then the Insurance industries get involved, then big Pharma, Corporations start poking around for financial advantages and before ya know it, capitalism is rocking and who gives a crap about the kids anymore, there just a means to justify a end.
I was just saying if all this came to a end today, what happens with the kids/parents/so forth and how do we deal with the void. There will be a void, a open wound how do we treat it, "Wilfull suspension of Disbelief".
Danny