Author Topic: SCIENTOLOGY (TM)  (Read 16262 times)

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2005, 04:10:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-24 11:08:00, Paul wrote:


Is that fair to those that have posted comments to these Scientology posts?

Are you sure all Fornits readers have researched the databased.

After all, it is voluntary to read posts on Fornits.

I don't see why you are suggesting censorship,
especially at one LA Times article per day?

Please expand on your request.

Thanks!


I'm not sure all readers have researched the database. In fact I'm nearly certain that YOU HAVE NOT! I'm asking you to DO THAT, PLEASE! Just find those old threads (in which there has been some discussion) and BUMP THEM BY ADDING SOMETHING TO THE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF JUST FLOODING THE FORUM W/ COPIED AND PASTED MATERIAL AND NO MEANINGFUL CONTENT!!!

YES, I'M SHOUTING. YOU PAID NO ATTENTION WHEN I WASN'T SHOUTING SO NOW I AM SHOUTING! PLEASE PAY ATTENTION! EITHER PARTICIPATE IN A MEANINGFUL WAY OR DON'T LEACH OFF OF MY SERVER.

If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec7.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »
Scientology...Paul dude let it go are you Obsessed with this and Tom Cruise or what. Give us all a fucking break already.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2005, 06:54:00 PM »
I think he thinks that if he spamms the board w/ enough clam trivia then we'll all forget that the clams are not the only ones who object to mandatory mental health screening.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2005, 07:26:00 PM »
Antigen,

What is your definition of spam?

This thread has had 47 posts, and 583 views.
People are reading, for whatever are their own
motivations.

Do you really think it is appropriate to censor
an unmoderated forum because someone is posting
a multi-part series from the LA Times?

I see plenty of newspaper articles, and web stories cut an pasted. I disagree with your villification of the LA Times as spam.

Fear not, I am no longer going to make posts stating that parents, and patients have rights to say no. The hostility back from you and a couple
of others in non-productive.

I will just finish the posting of the LA Times story, once a day, like I posted four days ago.
You didn't complain then, and I don't believe it
is your place to complain now.

After all, I wouldn't have read up on this COS stuff if Deborah hadn't challenged me on it. You
defended Deborah as not knowing she was posting
resources from Scientology front groups.

Why so aggravated on a little Scientology education from a large US newspaper. Especially on
a thread appropirately titled "Scientology", state by Wes Farger, and not buried inside some other thread with a non direct title on the topic.

Take today for instance, you posted Norm Stampers bood (thanks) in a new thread, that was appropriate and information or comments on his book or policing theories would be appropriate to that thread, would you not agree?

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2005, 07:30:00 PM »
Part 1: The Making of L. Ron Hubbard

Defining the Theology

It's a space-age religion that abounds in galactic tales, and its deepest secrets are known to few

(Sunday, 24 June 1990, page A36:1)

What is Scientology?

Not even the vast majority of Scientologists can fully answer the question.

In the Church of Scientology, there is no one book that comprehensively sets forth the religion's beliefs in the fashion of, say, the Bible or the Koran.

Rather, Scientology's theology is scattered among the voluminous writings and tape-recorded discourses of the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, who founded the religion in the early 1950s.

Piece by piece, his teachings are revealed to church members through a progression of sometimes secret courses that take years to complete and cost tens of thousands of dollars. Out of a membership estimated by the church to be 6.5 million, only a tiny fraction have climbed to the upper reaches. In fact, according to a Scientology publication earlier this year, fewer than 900 members have completed the church's highest course, nicknamed "Truth Revealed."

While Hubbard's "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health" typically is one of the first books read by church members, its relationship to Scientology is like that of a grade school to a university.

What Scientologists learn in their courses is never publicly discussed by the church, which is trying to shake its cultish image and establish itself as a mainstream religion. For to the uninitiated, Hubbard's theology would resemble pure science fiction, complete with galactic battles, interplanetary civilizations and tyrants who roam the universe.

Here, based on court records, church documents and Hubbard lectures that span the past four decades, is a rare look at portions of Scientology's theology and the cosmological musings of the man who wrote it.

Central to Scientology is a belief in an immortal soul, or "thetan," that passes from one body to the next through countless reincarnations spanning trillions of years. Collectively, thetans created the universe -- all the stars and planets, every plant and animal. To function within their creation, thetans built bodies for themselves of wildly varying appearances, the human form being just one.

But each thetan is vulnerable to painful experiences that can diminish its powers and create emotional and physical problems in the individual it inhabits. The goal of Scientology is to purge these experiences from the thetan, making it again omnipotent and returning spiritual and bodily health to its host.

The painful experiences are called "engrams." Hubbard said some happen by accident -- from ancient planetary wars, for example -- while others are intentionally inflicted by other thetans who have gone bad and want power. In Scientology, these engrams are called "implants."

According to Hubbard, the bad thetans through the eons have electronically implanted other thetans with information intended to confuse them and make them forget the powers they inherently possess -- kind of a brainwashing procedure.

While Hubbard was not always precise about the origins of the implants, he was very clear about the impact.

"Implants," Hubbard said, "result in all varieties of illness, apathy, degradation, neurosis and insanity and are the principal cause of these in man."

Hubbard identified numerous implants that he said have occurred through the ages and that are addressed during Scientology courses aimed at neutralizing their harmful effects.

Hubbard maintained, for example, that the concept of a Christian heaven is the product of two implants dating back more than 43 trillion years. Heaven, he said, is a "false dream" and a "very painful lie" intended to direct thetans toward a non-existent goal and convince them they have only one life.

In reality, Hubbard said, there is no heaven and there was no Christ.

"The (implanted) symbol of a crucified Christ is very apt indeed," Hubbard said. "It's the symbol of a thetan betrayed."

Hubbard said that one of the worst implants happens after a person dies.

While Hubbard's story of this implant may seem outlandish to some, he advanced it as a factual account of reincarnation.

"Of all the nasty, mean and vicious implants that have ever been invented, this one is it," he declared during a lecture in the 1950s. "And it's been going on for thousands of years."

Hubbard said that when a person dies, his or her thetan goes to a "landing station" on Venus, where it is programmed with lies about its past life and its next life. The lies include a promise that it will be returned to Earth by being lovingly shunted into the body of a newborn baby.

Not so, said Hubbard, who described the thetan's re-entry this way:

"What actually happens to you, you're simply capsuled and dumped in the gulf of lower California. Splash. The hell with ya. And you're on your own, man. If you can get out of that, and through that, and wander around through the cities and find some girl who looks like she is going to get married or have a baby or something like that, you're all set. And if you can find the maternity ward to a hospital or something, you're OK.

"And you just eventually just pick up a baby."

But Hubbard offered his followers an easy way to outwit the implant:

Scientologists should simply select a location other than Venus to go "when they kick the bucket."

Another notorious implant led Hubbard to construct an entire course for Scientologists who want to be rid of it.

Shrouded in mystery and kept in locked cabinets at select church locations, the course is called Operating Thetan III, billed by the church as "the final secret of the catastrophe which laid waste to this sector of the galaxy." It is taught only to the most advanced church members, at fees ranging to $6,000.

Hubbard told his followers that while unlocking the secret, he "became very ill, almost lost this body and somehow or another brought it off and obtained the material and was able to live through it."

Here's what he said he learned:

Seventy-five million years ago a tyrant named Xenu (pronounced Zee-new) ruled the Galactic Confederation, an alliance of 76 planets, including Earth, then called Teegeeack.

To control overpopulation and solidify his power, Xenu instructed his loyal officers to capture beings of all shapes and sizes from the various planets, freeze them in a compound of alcohol and glycol and fly them by the billions to Earth in planes resembling DC-8s. Some of the beings were captured after they were duped into showing up for a phony tax investigation.

The beings were deposited or chained near 10 volcanoes scattered around the planet. After hydrogen bombs were dropped on them, their thetans were captured by Xenu's forces and implanted with sexual perversion, religion and other notions to obscure their memory of what Xenu had done.

Soon after, a revolt erupted. Xenu was imprisoned in a wire cage within a mountain, where he remains today.

But the damage was done.

During the last 75 million years, these implanted thetans have affixed themselves by the thousands to people on Earth. Called "body thetans," they overwhelm the main thetan who resides within a person, causing confusion and internal conflict.

In the Operating Thetan III course, Scientologists are taught to scan their bodies for "pressure points," indicating the presence of these bad thetans. Using techniques prescribed by Hubbard, church members make telepathic contact with these thetans and remind them of Xenu's treachery. With that, Hubbard said, the thetans detach themselves

Hubbard first unveiled his Scientology theories during a series of often breathless lectures he delivered in Wichita, Kan., Phoenix and Philadelphia in 1952.

His talks were sprinkled with tales of interplanetary adventures he said he had experienced during earlier lives.

There was the time, for instance, that Hubbard said he was resting in a peaceful valley on a barren planet in some remote galaxy, and decided to spruce up the place. He said he "fixed up a lake" and "managed to coax into existence a few vines."

Then, "all of a sudden -- zoop boom -- and there was a spaceship," Hubbard recalled, saying "I got pretty mad about the whole thing."

"I remember bringing a thunderstorm," Hubbard said. "Moved it over the ship.... And then (I) let them have it."

Hubbard told associates that he had been many people before being born as Lafayette Ronald Hubbard on March 13, 1911, in Tilden, Neb. One of them was Cecil Rhodes, the British-born diamond king of southern Africa. Another, according to a former aide, was a marshal to Joan of Arc.

After Hubbard's death in 1986, a Scientology publication described him as "the original musician," who 3 million years ago invented music while going by the name "Arpen Polo." The publication noted that "he wrote his first song a bit after the first tick of time."

Hubbard realized that his accounts of past lives, implants and extraterrestrial creatures might sound suspect to outsiders. So he counseled his disciples to keep mum.

"Don't start walking around and telling people about space opera because they're not going to believe you," he said, "and they're going to say, 'Well, that's just Hubbard.' "
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2005, 07:30:00 PM »
Just bcuz ppl are accessing this page don't mean they're reading it. Get a life.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2005, 07:32:00 PM »
What a fuckstick. Yet ANOTHER one...right as I was making that last post. Just proved my point. Jeeeeezz....
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2005, 07:39:00 PM »
No, Paul, I posted some info and a link to more info on that new book. That's different from posting pages long copies of a 15 year old series. You've posted the link, w/ no comment or value added whatever. And I've asked you to quit flooding. Notice how nobody's talking about the content you've posted? That's because you're not even trying to engage in discussion. So that's why you won't be posting here anymore.

Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2005, 07:49:00 PM »
It's a two year old thread averaging less than 1 view per day. Not exactly a smash hit.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0136374069/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Andrew Tannenbaum

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Offline 001010

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« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2005, 08:13:00 PM »
I am very interested in the articles, and find the subject of Scientology in general frightening and disturbing. I see nothing wrong with the articles being posted, and I'm shocked that Deborah has taken part of her her anti-program stance using Scientology information or references, expecially without claiming where they came from.

[edit]I have one Scientology story in mind that hits somewhat close to home, and I think I have a pretty good idea of how evil that church is. It is a lot like the PURE vs. WWASPS deal.

I still don't understand Ginger feeling the need to censor the discussion or posting of articles, especially when we have threads like, "How to mainline smack" in this forum, as well as dozens and dozens of other completely ridiculous threads.

Talk about it and let the truth find its own way.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10476&forum=9&Sort=D#111159' target='_new'>Some Joker



_________________
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke
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[size=79]EST (Landmark/Lifespring/Discovery) \'83
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Straight, Inc. \'86-\'88[/size]

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2005, 09:14:00 PM »
Nope, nothing wrong w/ discussing the articles. They really are quite informative to anyone who doesn't know much about clams.

However, he's not posting links, excerpts or discussion about them. He's reposting pages and pages long whole copies of material that's been in the same place for over a decade. Nobody's reading it. Nobody's talking about it. It's only tangentally to the topic we were discussing. I've asked him a few times now to quit doing that and he insists on continuing.

I think Paul should open his own blog or something.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2005, 10:28:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-25 18:14:00, Antigen wrote:

"Nope, nothing wrong w/ discussing the articles. They really are quite informative to anyone who doesn't know much about clams.



However, he's not posting links, excerpts or discussion about them. He's reposting pages and pages long whole copies of material that's been in the same place for over a decade. Nobody's reading it. Nobody's talking about it. It's only tangentally to the topic we were discussing. I've asked him a few times now to quit doing that and he insists on continuing.




Ginger,

I appreciate taking the block off so I can reply.

Posting articles is not prohibited on this site,
at least I could find no ground rules for it.

I see plenty of whole articles posted, with no comments.

The discussion that led to these articles happened before I found this well written article. Why would people want to discuss what led Deborah to state that COS had nothing to with her posts nor did it have any impact on psychiatry or the right to be respected and choose a treatment of one's choice.

After those declarations in a set of numerous emails I just don't see why you think it is necessary for people to comment on each article. This is like reading a short version of a encyclopedic article about the COS. What is there to discuss. It was what led up to the postings that counted, now it is just information, period.

Why do you care? I thought this was an open forum?

Since when do you tell people how to post, what content to mention and what content not to mention. Along with controlling post volume?

If it is in some set of rules you have, then I missed it, if not then you are acting way out of character and probably should explain your actions to the Fornit's community.

If you are going to block my access to your server and access to the Fornit's readers again, I think it would be appropriate to let the readers at large know of your actions. No need to be sneeky.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2005, 10:31:00 PM »
Ginger,

Why would you make a comment if a thread is significant or not. Is that your role on this
open forum?

10 views per hour in the last four hours, BTW,
would probably not fit your criteria for a
non-popular thread.

It should not matter anyhow!

Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2005, 10:34:00 PM »
Ginger,

Regarding this issue. First it is a regular practice here to post whole articles. If they are on topic in
the right thread ... ? Enough said, correct?

It appeared to me that some Fornit's readers posted that they where busy, and appreciated the articles.

That gave me the inclination that posting the whole
article would be an appropriate way to share this information with those readers.

It is all about consumer convenience, correct?

Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2005, 10:36:00 PM »
Ginger,

The decision to read this thread, or any other,
is voluntary.

If you don't like it, don't read it!

What is wrong with that freedom extended to yourself, as well as the whole Fornit's community?

Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.