Author Topic: Excessive Restraints  (Read 14810 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Excessive Restraints
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 10:25:37 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
OK, Mr. WHO, If regulation will not effect, or even hurt, the ptrograms which are presently doing a good job - then why isn't EVERYBODY fighting for regulation to weed out the bad programs; or to help these programs that aren't dong a "good job" to come up to standards?


For many reasons…… people don’t know about the industry unless they have a need for it.  If their child did well and was helped by the school they attended then they have moved on… parents who had kids that were hurt by the industry probably would want regulation (like Zen Agent)… but the majority of the people within the industry wouldn’t want regulation…
The bad programs don’t want regulation because it might expose them and put them out of business.  The good programs don’t want regulation because they would have to submit to a ton of bureaucratic paper work and requirements, submitting reports, tracking data they don’t see any value in etc.

For example, would you want DSS visiting you all the time?  Do you call them up and ask them to stop over to inspect your place and check on your kids? Or do you think you do a good job with out them?

It’s the same with TBS’s



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 11:24:45 AM »
Here is the other thing. I hate programs. But if they were regulated, which I'm all for--any inconvenience to them, I happily support. But--I still think you'd have rampant abuses. I just remember how phony we all were during parent visits.

The analogy I use is that since the NCLB act was legislated, schools have all this bureaucratic protocol we have to follow to ensure we cross every t and dot every i in terms of accounting for student success.   Often, the procedures we undertake actually leave us less time to design banging lessons. Also, NCLB is NOT about building relationships--but doing paperwork. Every good teacher knows performance is best enhanced through a strong teacher-student dynamic.  Yet--shitty teachers can still pass if they do the required accountability steps.... Same with programs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline CCM girl 1989

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Re: Excessive Restraints
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2007, 11:59:23 AM »
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Well I have been counting thru my restraint logs.. so far 98 restraints in less than a 6 month period... BASTARDS....



You're telling me that you were restrained 98 times in less then a six month period? I can't even begin to imagine what that was like (if there were no repeats in those logs you're going through)?

I'm not calling you a liar. However, in my 4 years of being in programs I never saw a certain person, or individual being restrained that many times, not even halfway close. I was restrained about 10 times over a 4 year/4 different program stay, and I was one of the worse kids there. I don't know much about PV though. If that is the case, why did they keep you in this program, and not toss you out? I'm assuming when you are talking restraints, you are talking about full blown take downs, right?

Any, and all of the programs I was personally in would have tossed me out if I were to have behaved that badly. They just wouldn't have tolerated having me be such a negative influence on all the kids around me. Not only that, but it's tough on staff emotionally as well as physically to do that many take downs.

Wow, 98?!! Over 6 months? That's mind blowing. I didn't know PV to be so restraint happy?????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline ZenAgent

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Excessive Restraints
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2007, 12:07:10 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""

I haven’t seen any kids being jumped on by teachers in our public school system, but I have seen kids placed in isolation for minor offenses for hours at a time with no communication with their parents or others, no eye contact, no talking,no free expression and the person watching them has no training in emergency procedures.  Our local school subjects between 5 and 14 kids a day to this.


Hours, you say?  No, a lockdown like PV will be months of that treatment, not hours.  Most kids don't feel the need to communicate with their parents during the day in public school, they can do it when the get home.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
These kids are not allowed to receive mail at all and if they do it is withheld from them (which should be a federal offense according to some here).

PV opens the mail and "scans" the incoming and outgoing mail, and yeah, that is a Federal offense.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
We have had teachers take kids across the Mexican border for the purpose of having sex with them, some teachers have sex with students on field trips and in the parking lot, yet the public schools still stay open.

They drive them all the way from Newton, MA to Mexico?  If you'll recall Ken Kay's remarks about staff/patient sexual activity, he didn't think it was a problem, because the kids were bad...

Quote
Would you please post the names of the other places you know to be completely free of abuse? I would appreciate the information.

You say it doesn't happen in other places - does that devalue what my wife and step-daughter went through? Do you view their experiences as an "exception", a freak occurrence? Maybe you're comfortable with writing them off that way, but I have a lot of difficulty with that. That's my family. We didn't have any say in the program - my wife and I were unaware these places existed, and look at PV's website....it's a summer camp with smiling faces in the great outdoors. We didn't realize that investigating the place and asking questions about the treatment methods would screw the website's illusion and interfere with the "therapeutic process".

When you say "this doesn't happen in other places", you're insulting the people who went through places like PV - is it their fault they were put in the "wrong" place? Keep "breaking them down", even after they're out of the program. Who's capable of building them back up? Do you consider the program survivors to be liars? Doing a program by program inspection to sort "bad" from "good" would be idiotic - as soon as the heat lifted, program drift would take the places right back to the old physically violent, verbally abusive "tough love".

You've said not all programs are the same, but all programs are part of the "industry"(hate that term), so isn't it logical that we need "industry"-wide Federal regulations? If some programs are regulated out of existence, which is a common industry whine, so be it. They shouldn't be in operation if they can't meet Federal regulations.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
Zen,  I actually know how you feel as far as others devaluing your (and your families) experience.  I have been on the other end of the spectrum, had a great experience and have seen parents come on here to ask specific question regarding a school only to have events (which never even happened at that particular school) brought up as examples of what will happen to their kids.  I have had my experiences ignored or questioned,  my family disrespected, called a liar.
Talking about Posey restraints, and saying it happens in all schools, is an insult to those schools who don’t use them.  My daughter never saw one used in the 14 months she attended her school.  No one ever sat on her or anyone she knows.
I, personally disagree with you in that it would not be a great service and effort to identify and separate the better schools from those who abuse kids,  those that use restraints and escorts vs. those that do not. Etc.
Regulation may or may not work… personally I don’t put a lot of faith in the government to keep our kids safe and I agree, if regulation puts the schools out of business then they were not any good to begin with and the really bad ones will have to conform ----  but it wont effect (or could even hurt) the schools which are presently doing a good job in turning the kids around and getting them back on track.



...


Since you didn't name any programs, I guess you'll only put theWho seal of approval on ASR?  Hmm...SettleForNothingLess spent some time at ASR, perhaps she'll post her thoughts on the program.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2007, 12:20:01 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline ZenAgent

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Excessive Restraints
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2007, 12:52:02 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""

I haven’t seen any kids being jumped on by teachers in our public school system, but I have seen kids placed in isolation for minor offenses for hours at a time with no communication with their parents or others, no eye contact, no talking,no free expression and the person watching them has no training in emergency procedures.  Our local school subjects between 5 and 14 kids a day to this.


Hours, you say?  No, a lockdown like PV will be months of that treatment, not hours.  Most kids don't feel the need to communicate with their parents during the day in public school, they can do it when the get home.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
These kids are not allowed to receive mail at all and if they do it is withheld from them (which should be a federal offense according to some here).

PV opens the mail and "scans" the incoming and outgoing mail, and yeah, that is a Federal offense.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
We have had teachers take kids across the Mexican border for the purpose of having sex with them, some teachers have sex with students on field trips and in the parking lot, yet the public schools still stay open.

They drive them all the way from Newton, MA to Mexico?  If you'll recall Ken Kay's remarks about staff/patient sexual activity, he didn't think it was a problem, because the kids were bad...

Quote
Would you please post the names of the other places you know to be completely free of abuse? I would appreciate the information.

You say it doesn't happen in other places - does that devalue what my wife and step-daughter went through? Do you view their experiences as an "exception", a freak occurrence? Maybe you're comfortable with writing them off that way, but I have a lot of difficulty with that. That's my family. We didn't have any say in the program - my wife and I were unaware these places existed, and look at PV's website....it's a summer camp with smiling faces in the great outdoors. We didn't realize that investigating the place and asking questions about the treatment methods would screw the website's illusion and interfere with the "therapeutic process".

When you say "this doesn't happen in other places", you're insulting the people who went through places like PV - is it their fault they were put in the "wrong" place? Keep "breaking them down", even after they're out of the program. Who's capable of building them back up? Do you consider the program survivors to be liars? Doing a program by program inspection to sort "bad" from "good" would be idiotic - as soon as the heat lifted, program drift would take the places right back to the old physically violent, verbally abusive "tough love".

You've said not all programs are the same, but all programs are part of the "industry"(hate that term), so isn't it logical that we need "industry"-wide Federal regulations? If some programs are regulated out of existence, which is a common industry whine, so be it. They shouldn't be in operation if they can't meet Federal regulations.

Quote from: ""TheWho""
Zen,  I actually know how you feel as far as others devaluing your (and your families) experience.  I have been on the other end of the spectrum, had a great experience and have seen parents come on here to ask specific question regarding a school only to have events (which never even happened at that particular school) brought up as examples of what will happen to their kids.  I have had my experiences ignored or questioned,  my family disrespected, called a liar.
Talking about Posey restraints, and saying it happens in all schools, is an insult to those schools who don’t use them.  My daughter never saw one used in the 14 months she attended her school.  No one ever sat on her or anyone she knows.
I, personally disagree with you in that it would not be a great service and effort to identify and separate the better schools from those who abuse kids,  those that use restraints and escorts vs. those that do not. Etc.
Regulation may or may not work… personally I don’t put a lot of faith in the government to keep our kids safe and I agree, if regulation puts the schools out of business then they were not any good to begin with and the really bad ones will have to conform ----  but it wont effect (or could even hurt) the schools which are presently doing a good job in turning the kids around and getting them back on track.



...


Since you didn't name any programs, I guess you'll only put theWho seal of approval on ASR?  Hmm...SettleForNothingLess spent some time at ASR, perhaps she'll post her thoughts on the program.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2007, 04:04:08 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Hours, you say? No, a lockdown like PV will be months of that treatment, not hours. Most kids don't feel the need to communicate with their parents during the day in public school, they can do it when the get home.

So it seems isolation is okay… it’s the length of time that seems to be at issue.  Some parents choose to send their kids to a private school (unregulated) to avoid this type of treatment…. So I guess it is all relative.

Quote
PV opens the mail and "scans" the incoming and outgoing mail, and yeah, that is a Federal offense.

Our public school is even worse..they wont even give the mail to the student (opened or unopened)…it goes to the parents.

Quote
They drive them all the way from Newton, MA to Mexico? If you'll recall Ken Kay's remarks about staff/patient sexual activity, he didn't think it was a problem, because the kids were bad...
So it seems many public schools feel the same way as this guy Ken Kay.. and these places are heavily regulated too.  This is one of the reasons I don’t think regulation will solve anything.

Quote
Since you didn't name any programs, I guess you'll only put theWho seal of approval on ASR? Hmm...SettleForNothingLess spent some time at ASR, perhaps she'll post her thoughts on the program.

Seems you view the industry thru your experience with PV and what you read here and other parents and I view mine from what I experienced at ASR and what I read here and other parents.
I don’t get angry because of your bias towards the industry… people should not be angry with my perspective… we all need to try to understand each other better.


...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Covergaard

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Re: Excessive Restraints
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2007, 04:14:31 PM »
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Well I have been counting thru my restraint logs.. so far 98 restraints in less than a 6 month period... BASTARDS....

You're telling me that you were restrained 98 times in less then a six month period? I can't even begin to imagine what that was like (if there were no repeats in those logs you're going through)?

I'm not calling you a liar. However, in my 4 years of being in programs I never saw a certain person, or individual being restrained that many times, not even halfway close. I was restrained about 10 times over a 4 year/4 different program stay, and I was one of the worse kids there. I don't know much about PV though. If that is the case, why did they keep you in this program, and not toss you out? I'm assuming when you are talking restraints, you are talking about full blown take downs, right?

Any, and all of the programs I was personally in would have tossed me out if I were to have behaved that badly. They just wouldn't have tolerated having me be such a negative influence on all the kids around me. Not only that, but it's tough on staff emotionally as well as physically to do that many take downs.

Wow, 98?!! Over 6 months? That's mind blowing. I didn't know PV to be so restraint happy?????
I have mapped a lot of programs, but none....NONE combine restraints in such a both clinical and cynical way.

WWASP are bastards, but at least the common staff on the facilities does not pretend to be otherwise. They don't wear suits, when they leave work and appear in public.

According to their video, it is about to learn the children to be patients.

As a boy I got meningitis and was held in total isolation for 14 days. The only visits I got was my parents and they had to wear masks. I had such a fever that they were able to do a lumbar puncture without me complaining. Being a patient is nothing you can learn, it is a title you earn when you are ill.

I have investigated if we have such a facility in Denmark and yes we do. In order to be admitted you have to kill a person in a very brutal way and while you are at, kill two or three just to be sure that you doesn't get the 12-16 year per murder, but life (In Denmark life means life on paper only. You are released when all the doctors agree that you only can chew melted butter or but also if they feel that you are no danger to the society anymore. The longest prisontime served since WWII is 33 years and it was for murdering 4 unarmed cops and they were served in a normal prison. Just a year ago the authorities released a former doctor who traveled 100 kilometers where she killed the wife of her lover and burned down the down with two children who also died. She ended up serving about 10-11 years. So the crime has to be worse than that.).

I found an article about the place. A person has isolated himself for 10 years in his room because he is afraid that the staff will steal his thoughts. For 10 year they have tried to speak to him but he tries to strangle people if they stay alone in his room so this is their only case where they feel that they have failed - so far.

The article mentions another case. A man had stabbed a person and had chopped his victim up. He arrived in a suit similar to the posey the children at PV are restrained in. But within a week they could let him walk without danger among the other patients.

A stay can be a short as 18 months, but the normal stay is 7 years.

This unit is the only one of its kind in Denmark and they can detain 50 patients. The name is "The security" because it is the only place none has ever escaped from since it was founded in 1918.

But not even this unit has that many restraints as PV can achieve. Patients arrive in restraints and are kept the first 24-48 hours in restraints, but within a week the doctors has diagnosed the inmate and 90 percent are able to live in the facility among the other patients. They say that they are experts in seeing a built-up of an aggression so they can avoid the use of restraints.

I was in disbelief when I learned about PV. While I can understand the use of restraints for a short period if the staff is attacked with a weapon, I can't understand it used as a strategy for treatment especially when the teenagers who are entering the facility are not even diagnosed yet. At PV they are supposed to diagnose themselves in group and invidual therapy by giving the staffmembers confessions.

Why are they restraining in such a unheard way? Maybe if a staffmember could get on here and tell why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2007, 04:52:22 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here is the other thing. I hate programs. But if they were regulated, which I'm all for--any inconvenience to them, I happily support. But--I still think you'd have rampant abuses. I just remember how phony we all were during parent visits.

The analogy I use is that since the NCLB act was legislated, schools have all this bureaucratic protocol we have to follow to ensure we cross every t and dot every i in terms of accounting for student success.   Often, the procedures we undertake actually leave us less time to design banging lessons. Also, NCLB is NOT about building relationships--but doing paperwork. Every good teacher knows performance is best enhanced through a strong teacher-student dynamic.  Yet--shitty teachers can still pass if they do the required accountability steps.... Same with programs.


Thats a good analogy....  I feel the same way and dont think regulation will do much to change things for the better.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2007, 05:30:49 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
OK, Mr. WHO, If regulation will not effect, or even hurt, the ptrograms which are presently doing a good job - then why isn't EVERYBODY fighting for regulation to weed out the bad programs; or to help these programs that aren't dong a "good job" to come up to standards?


Because there are those of us who realize that the abuse that occurs in programs doesn't discriminate between licensed and unlicensed.

Most of us, who don't have some financial stake in the industry, just want programs to go away period. What is left is geniune treatment based upon peer reviewed treatment models facilitated by credentialed and licensed therapists with well trained staff and due process and civil rights afforded to all the patients.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Excessive Restraints
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2007, 05:33:37 PM »
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Well I have been counting thru my restraint logs.. so far 98 restraints in less than a 6 month period... BASTARDS....


You're telling me that you were restrained 98 times in less then a six month period? I can't even begin to imagine what that was like (if there were no repeats in those logs you're going through)?

I'm not calling you a liar. However, in my 4 years of being in programs I never saw a certain person, or individual being restrained that many times, not even halfway close. I was restrained about 10 times over a 4 year/4 different program stay, and I was one of the worse kids there. I don't know much about PV though. If that is the case, why did they keep you in this program, and not toss you out? I'm assuming when you are talking restraints, you are talking about full blown take downs, right?

Any, and all of the programs I was personally in would have tossed me out if I were to have behaved that badly. They just wouldn't have tolerated having me be such a negative influence on all the kids around me. Not only that, but it's tough on staff emotionally as well as physically to do that many take downs.

Wow, 98?!! Over 6 months? That's mind blowing. I didn't know PV to be so restraint happy?????


Again I had a kid in my group who was restrained 98 times or more IN ONE MONTH.

And frankly who gives a fuck what it does to staff? As a former staff I can vouch that more than likely 99 percent of her 98 restraints were unwarranted and improperly performed.

So when viewed in that context the only regards I have for her staff/tormenters are the high hopes that they die in a painful tree branch shredder accident.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2007, 06:56:39 PM »
Wow such anger! Did they can your ass, or wht?!!! :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline ZenAgent

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Excessive Restraints
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2007, 07:38:36 PM »
Did you ever get chemically restrained, CCM?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Excessive Restraints
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2007, 09:10:19 PM »
Quote from: ""Covergaard""
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Well I have been counting thru my restraint logs.. so far 98 restraints in less than a 6 month period... BASTARDS....

You're telling me that you were restrained 98 times in less then a six month period? I can't even begin to imagine what that was like (if there were no repeats in those logs you're going through)?

I'm not calling you a liar. However, in my 4 years of being in programs I never saw a certain person, or individual being restrained that many times, not even halfway close. I was restrained about 10 times over a 4 year/4 different program stay, and I was one of the worse kids there. I don't know much about PV though. If that is the case, why did they keep you in this program, and not toss you out? I'm assuming when you are talking restraints, you are talking about full blown take downs, right?

Any, and all of the programs I was personally in would have tossed me out if I were to have behaved that badly. They just wouldn't have tolerated having me be such a negative influence on all the kids around me. Not only that, but it's tough on staff emotionally as well as physically to do that many take downs.

Wow, 98?!! Over 6 months? That's mind blowing. I didn't know PV to be so restraint happy?????
I have mapped a lot of programs, but none....NONE combine restraints in such a both clinical and cynical way.

But not even this unit has that many restraints as PV can achieve. Patients arrive in restraints and are kept the first 24-48 hours in restraints, but within a week the doctors has diagnosed the inmate and 90 percent are able to live in the facility among the other patients. They say that they are experts in seeing a built-up of an aggression so they can avoid the use of restraints.

I


You really don't know what the subterranean world of program/institutions is like. ALOT of places have combo chemical/physical restraint. Survivors just aren't vocal about it. i was in chemical restraints for at least a month at one institution that I've never even heard mentioned here. Sadly, by my experience, this place doesn't sound that bad. It's abusive, but it's not a cult. How'd you like to be chemically restrained by cult members with a dozen children assisting? How'd you like the "restriners" to be kids further along in the program with the syringe? Welcome to my world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2007, 09:11:02 PM »
Ah, I understand what everyone is talking about (Ding,Ding,Ding) Restraint is being defined as a chemical restraint or a person being medicated 3 times per day for a month = 90+ times.  I was going to say.. Dam.. trying to get these kids into poseys every morning after breakfast... then again after Lunch... then again after Dinner would take an army of staff and a dedicated room to store, name and install/uninstall all these poseys.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »