Excessive Restraints

[ZenAgent]

Whootie, didn't we have a discussion recently about questioning program survivors' "claims", as you call them?.....

Yes,  I remember the discussion… you must have missed the posters here not believing a parents story and calling him/her a troll… it should work both ways… but I am still open minded regardless… so I guess it is okay to question all posters and that is all I am doing.

These other posters don't identify themselves.  Sorry to single you out.

…..don't assume kids in other programs had the same privileges your daughter did at ASR

Finally………….,  I have been fighting a mentality here on fornits for years stating that all programs are alike.  Its good to hear some posters are finally admitting there is a difference other than the color paint on the doors.  I accept that, Zen, maybe PV is more abusive than most !!  Maybe they restrain kids every day, but this doesn’t happen in other places.

…… because they all get thrown into the same milieu, cutters with sodomizers, anorexics with homicidal kids.

Dispels the other belief and assumptions that there isn’t anything wrong with any of the kids who go to these places.  I have read people posting here who claim the kids don’t need any help or were on their way to a great life until their parents pulled them away and sent them to a TBS for no reason.



...

Not true, and that's my point.  There's a financial need to fill empty beds in programs - you should know the nature of the business - and ethics tend to come a distant second to job security.  There's the false advertising and one-size-fits-all treatment that is seductive to parents who may be dealing with a normal teenager, they just don't have the time or desire to work on their parenting skills in all-inclusive family therapy.  They opt for residential treatment which is often "daddy-dictated" or "mommy-dictated" in split families.  The program is going to follow the lead of the parent who pays, how harshly are they going to criticize the paying parent if they discover he/she is the primary cause of the trouble?  

This is all business, bad business.

[Nihilanthic]

Why isn't he banned yet?

[Anonymous]

Why isn't he banned yet?

Yes, banned for his excessive buttfuckery.

[Oz girl]

Finally………….,  I have been fighting a mentality here on fornits for years stating that all programs are alike.  Its good to hear some posters are finally admitting there is a difference other than the color paint on the doors.  I accept that, Zen, maybe PV is more abusive than most !!  Maybe they restrain kids every day, but this doesn’t happen in other places
...

So can you please specifically name a place that does not incarcerate a young person without trial and which allows completely uncensored contact with whomever the student desires?

[Nihilanthic]

No he's going to say that its OK for a program to trample parental rights because its 'more fun' to visit the program instead of take the girl out of it.  :roll:

When Psy is back after I congratulate him, I need to kick him in the taint.

[TheWho]

Finally………….,  I have been fighting a mentality here on fornits for years stating that all programs are alike.  Its good to hear some posters are finally admitting there is a difference other than the color paint on the doors.  I accept that, Zen, maybe PV is more abusive than most !!  Maybe they restrain kids every day, but this doesn’t happen in other places
...

So can you please specifically name a place that does not incarcerate a young person without trial and which allows completely uncensored contact with whomever the student desires?

I don’t think a place exists, to tell you the truth.  From the time a child is born until he/she reaches legal age, they are incarcerated.  They are sent to day care against their will…. Placed into institutionalized schooling at age 5.  If they refuse to get on the bus then the parents must drive them and place them into the hands of people they don’t know.  The kids are denied individual identity in many cases and told what to wear… no contact with the outside world… they are sent from room to room like cattle and fed the same way, with very little options of the food they can eat.  If the child steps out of line they are further isolated into detention with no contact with friends and not allowed to speak or communicate with family.  They are subjected to a constant behavior modification plan their entire lives with the focus being on compliance to social norms and education.

It is absolutely awful…. The only way out of this is to have parents who homes school or to run away at age 4 ½ and live on the streets.
So spending a few months in a TBS can be a breath of fresh air for many kids.

@ Zen, almost everything you stated can be true of a local high school or boarding school.



...

[ZenAgent]

@ Zen, almost everything you stated can be true of a local high school or boarding school.

...

"Almost everything"? That's a bit dodgy - What local high school has teachers who pile-up five high on a face-down kid and ignore them when they say they can't breathe?

Which boarding school cuts-off a child's communication with parents who question the school's policies or ask for curriculum vitae on the staff?

What public or private school denies a child's right to be creative?  PV allows no journaling, no drawing, no listening to music, no access to musical instruments, no poetry.  No expression of self, the kids can do nothing but sit...and wait.

What public or private school is allowed to keep kids locked in a unit with no exposure to the outside for months at a time?

What public or private school is allowed to open and "inspect" incoming and outgoing mail?

What public or private school do you know of with a "no eye contact" rule for students?

I've been able to contrast my high school experience with my step-daughter's at PV, and see no similarities at all.  It's like comparing Alcatraz to Romper Room.  The worst thing that could happen in high school for me was suspension or expulsion.  At PV, expulsion would seem like a gift.

Maybe they restrain kids every day, but this doesn’t happen in other places.

Would you please post the names of the other places you know to be completely free of abuse?  I would appreciate the information.

You say it doesn't happen in other places - does that devalue what my wife and step-daughter went through?  Do you view their experiences as an "exception", a freak occurrence?  Maybe you're comfortable with writing them off that way, but I have a lot of difficulty with that.  That's my family.  We didn't have any say in the program - my wife and I were unaware these places existed, and look at PV's website....it's a summer camp with smiling faces in the great outdoors.  We didn't realize that investigating the place and asking questions about the treatment methods would screw the website's illusion and interfere with the "therapeutic process".

When you say "this doesn't happen in other places", you're insulting the people who went through places like PV - is it their fault they were put in the "wrong" place?  Keep "breaking them down", even after they're out of the program.  Who's capable of building them back up?  Do you consider the program survivors to be liars?  Doing a program by program inspection to sort "bad" from "good" would be idiotic - as soon as the heat lifted, program drift would take the places right back to the old physically violent, verbally abusive "tough love".

You've said not all programs are the same, but all programs are part of the "industry"(hate that term), so isn't it logical that we need "industry"-wide Federal regulations?  If some programs are regulated out of existence, which is a common industry whine, so be it.  They shouldn't be in operation if they can't meet Federal regulations.

[Covergaard]

Examples of mechanical restraints used at Peninsula Village include: body net (A soft nylon net that is placed over the adolescent while lying on a restraint bed and secured so that they can not injure themselves or others. The body net typically reaches from the adolecents's shoulders to calves,), and restraint jacket (A thick canvas jacket with straps that go around to keep the adolescent's arms tucked by their sides. The restraints jacket typically reaches to the hip area so the adolescent has free movement of their legs.)

So the parents should not be shocked. They must have read this manual before admission and have decided that this kind of torture is OK for their child.

One question remains to be asked. They also state:

It will not be used in a manner that causes undue physical discomfort, parm or pain to the adolecent.

But are the use of these restraints not by nature causing discomfort?

[Anonymous]

Well I'll tell you about the good program that helped me to get my life back on track: SIBS. With its BD/SM therapy, SIBS provided the discipline I desperately needed to be real with myself and start taking responsibility. I'm a straight A student again thanks to the staff and group at SIBS!

[Anonymous]

Let stay on focus and forget places like SIBS or Foreland Hamlet as described in the short story Runaways

Who resembles "Dr. Wits" in reality?

Let us start another tread if we are going to talk about fiction, but please reserve this tread to the cruel reality about treatment in Tennessee.

[Anonymous]

Runaways

[TheWho]

"Almost everything"? That's a bit dodgy - What local high school has teachers who pile-up five high on a face-down kid and ignore them when they say they can't breathe?

Which boarding school cuts-off a child's communication with parents who question the school's policies or ask for curriculum vitae on the staff?

What public or private school denies a child's right to be creative? PV allows no journaling, no drawing, no listening to music, no access to musical instruments, no poetry. No expression of self, the kids can do nothing but sit...and wait.

What public or private school is allowed to keep kids locked in a unit with no exposure to the outside for months at a time?

What public or private school is allowed to open and "inspect" incoming and outgoing mail?

What public or private school do you know of with a "no eye contact" rule for students?

I've been able to contrast my high school experience with my step-daughter's at PV, and see no similarities at all. It's like comparing Alcatraz to Romper Room. The worst thing that could happen in high school for me was suspension or expulsion. At PV, expulsion would seem like a gift.

I haven’t seen any kids being jumped on by teachers in our public school system, but I have seen kids placed in isolation for minor offenses for hours at a time with no communication with their parents or others, no eye contact, no talking,no free expression and the person watching them has no training in emergency procedures.  Our local school subjects between 5 and 14 kids a day to this.
These kids are not allowed to receive mail at all and if they do it is withheld from them (which should be a federal offense according to some here).
We have had teachers take kids across the Mexican border for the purpose of having sex with them, some teachers have sex with students on field trips and in the parking lot, yet the public schools still stay open.

Would you please post the names of the other places you know to be completely free of abuse? I would appreciate the information.

You say it doesn't happen in other places - does that devalue what my wife and step-daughter went through? Do you view their experiences as an "exception", a freak occurrence? Maybe you're comfortable with writing them off that way, but I have a lot of difficulty with that. That's my family. We didn't have any say in the program - my wife and I were unaware these places existed, and look at PV's website....it's a summer camp with smiling faces in the great outdoors. We didn't realize that investigating the place and asking questions about the treatment methods would screw the website's illusion and interfere with the "therapeutic process".

When you say "this doesn't happen in other places", you're insulting the people who went through places like PV - is it their fault they were put in the "wrong" place? Keep "breaking them down", even after they're out of the program. Who's capable of building them back up? Do you consider the program survivors to be liars? Doing a program by program inspection to sort "bad" from "good" would be idiotic - as soon as the heat lifted, program drift would take the places right back to the old physically violent, verbally abusive "tough love".

You've said not all programs are the same, but all programs are part of the "industry"(hate that term), so isn't it logical that we need "industry"-wide Federal regulations? If some programs are regulated out of existence, which is a common industry whine, so be it. They shouldn't be in operation if they can't meet Federal regulations.

Zen,  I actually know how you feel as far as others devaluing your (and your families) experience.  I have been on the other end of the spectrum, had a great experience and have seen parents come on here to ask specific question regarding a school only to have events (which never even happened at that particular school) brought up as examples of what will happen to their kids.  I have had my experiences ignored or questioned,  my family disrespected, called a liar.
Talking about Posey restraints, and saying it happens in all schools, is an insult to those schools who don’t use them.  My daughter never saw one used in the 14 months she attended her school.  No one ever sat on her or anyone she knows.
I, personally disagree with you in that it would not be a great service and effort to identify and separate the better schools from those who abuse kids,  those that use restraints and escorts vs. those that do not. Etc.
Regulation may or may not work… personally I don’t put a lot of faith in the government to keep our kids safe and I agree, if regulation puts the schools out of business then they were not any good to begin with and the really bad ones will have to conform ----  but it wont effect (or could even hurt) the schools which are presently doing a good job in turning the kids around and getting them back on track.



...

[Dr Fucktard]

Let stay on focus and forget places like SIBS or Foreland Hamlet as described in the short story Runaways

Who resembles "Dr. Wits" in reality?

Ahem.. I'd say I resemble that remark.. :wave:

[ZenAgent]

Examples of mechanical restraints used at Peninsula Village include: body net (A soft nylon net that is placed over the adolescent while lying on a restraint bed and secured so that they can not injure themselves or others. The body net typically reaches from the adolecents's shoulders to calves,), and restraint jacket (A thick canvas jacket with straps that go around to keep the adolescent's arms tucked by their sides. The restraints jacket typically reaches to the hip area so the adolescent has free movement of their legs.)

So the parents should not be shocked. They must have read this manual before admission and have decided that this kind of torture is OK for their child.

One question remains to be asked. They also state:

It will not be used in a manner that causes undue physical discomfort, parm or pain to the adolecent.

But are the use of these restraints not by nature causing discomfort?

The manual for parents doesn't mention chemical restraints, which PV does use according to former patients.  When I spoke with the DCS about the use of tranquilizers and such, the DCS investigator sighed and said "Well, they're allowed to use them,"   End of discussion there.

I do think it is deceptive to not mention the possibility of kids being whacked full of Thorazine or Klonopine in the parents' manual.

Covergaard, did the link to the story about PV in Metro Pulse from 1997, "Harsh Treatment", disappear?  We've got saved copies with the full graphics and cover of the issue if you need it.  Your Secretprisonsforteens' PV page is great.

[Anonymous]

OK, Mr. WHO, If regulation will not effect, or even hurt, the ptrograms which are presently doing a good job - then why isn't EVERYBODY fighting for regulation to weed out the bad programs; or to help these programs that aren't dong a "good job" to come up to standards?