Author Topic: One more thing about the who  (Read 2178 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2007, 09:21:26 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Niles wrote:
Quote
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.
I agree it is an open forum.. arguing, speaking your views, speaking out of your ass, yes,  dont forget your favorite Niles.. posting porn and links to hate sites (anti black and anti Jewish propaganda).  Lets not be shy and leave out your contributions here.




...


Fornits is indeed an open forum, which means there will always be people like theWho to exploit it.  Mr. Who, you seem to be launching a one man Jihad on this forum.  You are certainly no martyr.  The group-think is not the issue here, it is your desire to subvert and distort for financial reasons, by your own admission you have ties to the industry.

Are you sure the posts you refer to were posted by Niles?  The ones I saw were anonymous.  You are not omniscient, nor do you have admin status here.  Your speculation reveals your hostility.  It's more likely you posted the offensive material yourself, Mr. Who, to discredit a group you obviously despise for interfering with your income.  Until you offer proof otherwise, we could follow your example and hold you responsible, evidence be damned.  

As for the attempt to expose Mr. Who's identity and business - it was a truly shameful effort on Fornits' part.  I expected more from this group.  Let me offer this advice:

Re-double your efforts and work as a team, not individually chasing clues.  Psy thinks it's one gentleman, Zen Agent focuses on another - combine your talents for research and work together.  Don't post anything about what your research turns up - if you determine Mr. Who has violated any codes of his profession or is engaging in illegal business practices, report him to the proper authorities and let them deal with him.  If there's a story, you can break it here first after he's caught.

Keep looking.  Mr. Who is using Fornits sense of fair play and openness against the group in an attempt to divide and conquer.  All survivors of programs know the industry's position on fair, ethical treatment and honesty - they're on the level of the Mafia in their financial dealings and will go to any lengths to maintain their interests - just ask Mr. Who.

Do what you can to engage the public, as well.  There have been vicious comments directed at Fornits members who didn't suffer in a program.  Individuals have said no one has business here unless they were in a program.  The keyword is business, and it's crucial to keep the teen industry "under the radar" of public attention for these abusive programs to continue unimpeded by oversight.  

The more "trolls" you see on the forum is an indication of the fear and anxiety the industry is feeling.  Regardless of how you view the GAO investigation and the effectiveness of Federal regulation of the industry, the hearings are putting abusive programs and sham facades like NATSAP under a spotlight, and they do not want the attention.

Another display of slack-jawed  bewilderment from Jan Moss at the next GAO hearing will certainly go a long way in getting bipartisan support of some real regulation.  It's a start, and Fornits is a source of invaluable information to investigators.

Stick together.  Keep pushing forward and don't get dragged into the industry's attempts to slow your momentum.  Mr. Who and his associates don't have anything positive to add to what you're trying to achieve, they would like to present as negative an element as possible.  The industry can't continue if the public becomes well-informed,  protecting children is a basic instinct people share.

Most people.  Not Mr. Who
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2007, 09:22:27 PM »
Having a conversation with guy is pointless. He's a shill, not a parent. Real program parents have souls, respond to data and other people's experience fair mindedly, even while insisting their program is different.
this fellow is different he's like the industries Goebbels


HOW BOUT THAT INDUSTRY SHILL TAG????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2007, 09:44:36 PM »
Whoever wrote the one two posts above needs to be given a medal or something. But Anonymous knows no personal achievements.

He's not Goebbels- more like Mohammed Said al-Sahaf...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2007, 11:10:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.

I love how he tries to whitewash years of grievances with "From where I sit I see all the anit-program people doing all the complaining and crying. "

CLASSIC  :rofl:

I know, right?

What a fucking DICK.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2007, 11:16:04 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Niles wrote:
Quote
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.
I agree it is an open forum.. arguing, speaking your views, speaking out of your ass, yes,  dont forget your favorite Niles.. posting porn and links to hate sites (anti black and anti Jewish propaganda).  Lets not be shy and leave out your contributions here.

Shut up, you fucking asshole. I'd rather see 500 threads like that than have to read just one post of yours... Fuck you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2007, 11:28:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Niles wrote:
Quote
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.
I agree it is an open forum.. arguing, speaking your views, speaking out of your ass, yes,  dont forget your favorite Niles.. posting porn and links to hate sites (anti black and anti Jewish propaganda).  Lets not be shy and leave out your contributions here.
Shut up, you fucking asshole. I'd rather see 500 threads like that than have to read just one post of yours... Fuck you.


Ha,Ha,Ha,  500 porn or hate site threads?  I think they may have a program designed for you!!  Lordy!!  you must love to read that stuff?  I don’t mind it popping up here and there.. it gets a little annoying butno way I could take 500 threads.. you must be really desensitized to it... not saying its a bad thing.. to each his own as they say.


...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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One more thing about the who
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2007, 02:17:13 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Niles wrote:
Quote
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.
I agree it is an open forum.. arguing, speaking your views, speaking out of your ass, yes,  dont forget your favorite Niles.. posting porn and links to hate sites (anti black and anti Jewish propaganda).  Lets not be shy and leave out your contributions here.
Shut up, you fucking asshole. I'd rather see 500 threads like that than have to read just one post of yours... Fuck you.

Ha,Ha,Ha,  500 porn or hate site threads?  I think they may have a program designed for you!!  Lordy!!  you must love to read that stuff?  I don’t mind it popping up here and there.. it gets a little annoying butno way I could take 500 threads.. you must be really desensitized to it... not saying its a bad thing.. to each his own as they say.


...


No comments Mr. Who?  I thought you would have picked this apart like a vulture...

Quote from: ""TheWho""
Niles wrote:
Quote
Protip.

Fornits is for whatever the fuck the present posters make it. Including speaking out of your ass, which TheWho is SOOooooo good at.
I agree it is an open forum.. arguing, speaking your views, speaking out of your ass, yes,  dont forget your favorite Niles.. posting porn and links to hate sites (anti black and anti Jewish propaganda).  Lets not be shy and leave out your contributions here.




...

Fornits is indeed an open forum, which means there will always be people like theWho to exploit it.  Mr. Who, you seem to be launching a one man Jihad on this forum.  You are certainly no martyr.  The group-think is not the issue here, it is your desire to subvert and distort for financial reasons, by your own admission you have ties to the industry.

Are you sure the posts you refer to were posted by Niles?  The ones I saw were anonymous.  You are not omniscient, nor do you have admin status here.  Your speculation reveals your hostility.  It's more likely you posted the offensive material yourself, Mr. Who, to discredit a group you obviously despise for interfering with your income.  Until you offer proof otherwise, we could follow your example and hold you responsible, evidence be damned.  

As for the attempt to expose Mr. Who's identity and business - it was a truly shameful effort on Fornits' part.  I expected more from this group.  Let me offer this advice:

Re-double your efforts and work as a team, not individually chasing clues.  Psy thinks it's one gentleman, Zen Agent focuses on another - combine your talents for research and work together.  Don't post anything about what your research turns up - if you determine Mr. Who has violated any codes of his profession or is engaging in illegal business practices, report him to the proper authorities and let them deal with him.  If there's a story, you can break it here first after he's caught.

Keep looking.  Mr. Who is using Fornits sense of fair play and openness against the group in an attempt to divide and conquer.  All survivors of programs know the industry's position on fair, ethical treatment and honesty - they're on the level of the Mafia in their financial dealings and will go to any lengths to maintain their interests - just ask Mr. Who.

Do what you can to engage the public, as well.  There have been vicious comments directed at Fornits members who didn't suffer in a program.  Individuals have said no one has business here unless they were in a program.  The keyword is business, and it's crucial to keep the teen industry "under the radar" of public attention for these abusive programs to continue unimpeded by oversight.  

The more "trolls" you see on the forum is an indication of the fear and anxiety the industry is feeling.  Regardless of how you view the GAO investigation and the effectiveness of Federal regulation of the industry, the hearings are putting abusive programs and sham facades like NATSAP under a spotlight, and they do not want the attention.

Another display of slack-jawed  bewilderment from Jan Moss at the next GAO hearing will certainly go a long way in getting bipartisan support of some real regulation.  It's a start, and Fornits is a source of invaluable information to investigators.

Stick together.  Keep pushing forward and don't get dragged into the industry's attempts to slow your momentum.  Mr. Who and his associates don't have anything positive to add to what you're trying to achieve, they would like to present as negative an element as possible.  The industry can't continue if the public becomes well-informed,  protecting children is a basic instinct people share.

Most people.  Not Mr. Who[/quote]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Froderik

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Re: Sad overgeneralization, as usual
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2010, 05:22:15 PM »
Quote from: "shanlea123"
Yes, the Troubled Teen industry does tend to incite extreme degrees or anger, sadness, disappointment, bitterness, and one other thing that we tend to mask: hurt. And pain for others who will suffer the same psychic scars we did.

It is a shame that there are those blind pro-program contingency continue to throw salt on indelible wounds of abuse, and call us "extreme hate mongers." Certainly, there is a faction who are extreme.   And while I don't condone threats and maps to dissidents' homes and families (on either side), I continue to marvel at the extreme insensitivity exhibited by those who support these programs. Insensitivity at the obvious pain and abuse suffered by thousands.  I think I prefer the extremism of those that are hot blooded over those that are cold hearted.

Maybe part of the problem is that it is easy for you to disregard us when we are "angry."  To you, it shows an imbalance.   Something easy for you to cast aside.

But really, isn't outrage appropriate? After all, we have all attended programs that:

1. Use bullying, badgering, spying, isolation, and coercion to exploit true, half true, and false stories of ourselves.

2. Use demeaning verbal and psychological abuse repeatedly to break us down.

3. Fail to individuate treatment or treat the individual with integrity.  

4. Fail to use proper therapeutic boundaries in treatment. How do we trust staff members who regale us with war stories of committing rape, manslaughter, molestation, and other deviancies while we work out our own issues?  Should we have to tell a GROUP of peers our most painful stories, only to be heckled and badgered and demeaned, while possibly a staff member committed the same  trauma inflicted on us in his "other life."   It is not uncommon for staff to join these programs to work out, in effect projecting, their own shit on us. Like the staff member who insisted  on me being a drug addict, even though I never was, and had in fact, not even seen drugs in six months prior to the program. Its hardly news that he himself was a hard core coke head who lost everything prior to CEDU. I can't tell you the number of staff who projected their eating disorders, their sexual histories, their drug addictions onto us, and basically hammered us until we accepted our newly revised histories and had to work on issues that didn't exist until we believed it ourselves.

5. Did I say there was little individuated treatment?

In addition:

6. What kind of place puts the upper level TEENAGERS in control of the psychological development (or should I say, devolution) of newcomers? It was like Lord of The Flies. Whoever bullies, castigates, puts down the best, wins.  

7. How does a daily onslaught of speaking to people in a demeaning, insulting fashion (slut, nigger, etc.) build them up? How is it elevating for an individual  to talk about themselves in a desultory way, daily and repeatedly? You are actually rewarded the more you put yourself down, with the greatest histrionics.

8. How can you argue that keeping students insulated from their families to the degree many programs operate is beneficial when this insularity has been so GROSSLY misused to manipulate families, students, and keep the program in the control pit?  If families can't talk to us, and we learn quickly the ramifications of speaking up, the school can and will say anything to keep the student under their thumbs.  This was systemic. And there is no checks and balances.

9. How can you subject young developing minds to confrontational style experientials, ranging from the four hour thrice weekly raps to the week long summits, where sleep and emotions are deftly manipulated to achieve a contrived dependence on program values and ideology, and an unnatural expectation of intensity in personal relationships?  These experentials were conceived for adults in serious mind control, money schemes such as Life Spring, EST, and synanon. They are not meant for kids. I would say they aren't meant for adults either, but hey, if you want to be psychically manipulated at the age of consent... whatever.

10. Parents do NOT know what really happens in raps and profeets. The demos they do are baby versions. Bullshit demos.  In programs like Straight, you don't see the crazy arm flaps--the motivating-- in open meetings that parents attend. Hell, no.... those are for show. Everyone knows to pile on the bullshit and act according to discretion in front of the parents or there will be hell to pay. In my program, everyone freely admits to, years later, the snow job they had to deliver during parent tours, OR ELSE!!  There was always that underlying tension of knowing you are required to play a part in order to survive a brutal onslaught later.

11. How many programs really prepare you for life outside? With REAL WORLD skills, relationships, and expectations? Because if there is one criticism amongst many ex programmees is that they left the program and were at a complete and total loss for how to function in the real world.

Now, of course, there are some transition programs, but they don't transition, they extend social ineptitude. (Why? Because social boundaries, expectations, and dynamics that we learn at these programs are contrived, unrealistic, and ideological...  Not to mention they rest on the premise of coerced intimacy and exploitation.

12.  The fall out, after years of isolation, insulation, psychological manipulation, daily, repeated verbal abuse en masse, and forced ingestion of rigid cult-like ideology at a critical stage of development takes decades to unravel.  You totally lose yourself and adopt some Stepford version of reality that doesn't exist....  or you go the other way, perhaps, and become the addict, prostitute, porn star, and bully you never were pre-program to live out the cult's depiction of you.  

In any event, you can't build someone up by treating them as a criminal class. You can't build them up by promoting coercion and forcing ideology of ONE way of thinking and acting.  You can't build people up when you teach a blatant disregard for self respect by continually forcing minors to verbally degrade and humiliate themselves in a group in order to be promoted through levels.   You can't build someone up when your whole program undermines the individual and operates on fraudulent psychodynamics.

You might dismiss some people on Fornits for being too radical or angry... but personal experience is  the driving force.   Many of us, in spite of our pains, have crafted a successful life for ourselves.  Others struggle more.   But we all have scars.

If your daughter gets raped, should I say, "get over it" ?  Some of us, in fact, have been raped, and find the psychic rape of these programs infinitely more scarring.  

You know, it really upsets me to know that names and addresses are relayed in a manner that compromises any family's sense of safety. (And that is a problem experienced by BOTH sides.)

But I am also pained by the knowledge that program advocates want to take away the cathartic outlet of those who were hurt in these programs. I also feel that prospective parents should hear the flip side of the coin before warehousing their children in dubious hands.  For this purpose, splayed anger is not as constructive as surgically directed anger, BUT

I would rather spend a lifetime in box with the angriest, most imbalanced poster here, then one day in luxury with someone who condones and rationalizes the insidious abuses that occur at these programs.
/bump/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: One more thing about the who
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2010, 06:59:05 PM »
Excellent post and bump!

 :notworthy:

Seriously excellent post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Sad overgeneralization, as usual
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2010, 10:08:31 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "shanlea123"
Yes, the Troubled Teen industry does tend to incite extreme degrees or anger, sadness, disappointment, bitterness, and one other thing that we tend to mask: hurt. And pain for others who will suffer the same psychic scars we did.

It is a shame that there are those blind pro-program contingency continue to throw salt on indelible wounds of abuse, and call us "extreme hate mongers." Certainly, there is a faction who are extreme.   And while I don't condone threats and maps to dissidents' homes and families (on either side), I continue to marvel at the extreme insensitivity exhibited by those who support these programs. Insensitivity at the obvious pain and abuse suffered by thousands.  I think I prefer the extremism of those that are hot blooded over those that are cold hearted.

Maybe part of the problem is that it is easy for you to disregard us when we are "angry."  To you, it shows an imbalance.   Something easy for you to cast aside.

But really, isn't outrage appropriate? After all, we have all attended programs that:

1. Use bullying, badgering, spying, isolation, and coercion to exploit true, half true, and false stories of ourselves.

2. Use demeaning verbal and psychological abuse repeatedly to break us down.

3. Fail to individuate treatment or treat the individual with integrity.  

4. Fail to use proper therapeutic boundaries in treatment. How do we trust staff members who regale us with war stories of committing rape, manslaughter, molestation, and other deviancies while we work out our own issues?  Should we have to tell a GROUP of peers our most painful stories, only to be heckled and badgered and demeaned, while possibly a staff member committed the same  trauma inflicted on us in his "other life."   It is not uncommon for staff to join these programs to work out, in effect projecting, their own shit on us. Like the staff member who insisted  on me being a drug addict, even though I never was, and had in fact, not even seen drugs in six months prior to the program. Its hardly news that he himself was a hard core coke head who lost everything prior to CEDU. I can't tell you the number of staff who projected their eating disorders, their sexual histories, their drug addictions onto us, and basically hammered us until we accepted our newly revised histories and had to work on issues that didn't exist until we believed it ourselves.

5. Did I say there was little individuated treatment?

In addition:

6. What kind of place puts the upper level TEENAGERS in control of the psychological development (or should I say, devolution) of newcomers? It was like Lord of The Flies. Whoever bullies, castigates, puts down the best, wins.  

7. How does a daily onslaught of speaking to people in a demeaning, insulting fashion (slut, nigger, etc.) build them up? How is it elevating for an individual  to talk about themselves in a desultory way, daily and repeatedly? You are actually rewarded the more you put yourself down, with the greatest histrionics.

8. How can you argue that keeping students insulated from their families to the degree many programs operate is beneficial when this insularity has been so GROSSLY misused to manipulate families, students, and keep the program in the control pit?  If families can't talk to us, and we learn quickly the ramifications of speaking up, the school can and will say anything to keep the student under their thumbs.  This was systemic. And there is no checks and balances.

9. How can you subject young developing minds to confrontational style experientials, ranging from the four hour thrice weekly raps to the week long summits, where sleep and emotions are deftly manipulated to achieve a contrived dependence on program values and ideology, and an unnatural expectation of intensity in personal relationships?  These experentials were conceived for adults in serious mind control, money schemes such as Life Spring, EST, and synanon. They are not meant for kids. I would say they aren't meant for adults either, but hey, if you want to be psychically manipulated at the age of consent... whatever.

10. Parents do NOT know what really happens in raps and profeets. The demos they do are baby versions. Bullshit demos.  In programs like Straight, you don't see the crazy arm flaps--the motivating-- in open meetings that parents attend. Hell, no.... those are for show. Everyone knows to pile on the bullshit and act according to discretion in front of the parents or there will be hell to pay. In my program, everyone freely admits to, years later, the snow job they had to deliver during parent tours, OR ELSE!!  There was always that underlying tension of knowing you are required to play a part in order to survive a brutal onslaught later.

11. How many programs really prepare you for life outside? With REAL WORLD skills, relationships, and expectations? Because if there is one criticism amongst many ex programmees is that they left the program and were at a complete and total loss for how to function in the real world.

Now, of course, there are some transition programs, but they don't transition, they extend social ineptitude. (Why? Because social boundaries, expectations, and dynamics that we learn at these programs are contrived, unrealistic, and ideological...  Not to mention they rest on the premise of coerced intimacy and exploitation.

12.  The fall out, after years of isolation, insulation, psychological manipulation, daily, repeated verbal abuse en masse, and forced ingestion of rigid cult-like ideology at a critical stage of development takes decades to unravel.  You totally lose yourself and adopt some Stepford version of reality that doesn't exist....  or you go the other way, perhaps, and become the addict, prostitute, porn star, and bully you never were pre-program to live out the cult's depiction of you.  

In any event, you can't build someone up by treating them as a criminal class. You can't build them up by promoting coercion and forcing ideology of ONE way of thinking and acting.  You can't build people up when you teach a blatant disregard for self respect by continually forcing minors to verbally degrade and humiliate themselves in a group in order to be promoted through levels.   You can't build someone up when your whole program undermines the individual and operates on fraudulent psychodynamics.

You might dismiss some people on Fornits for being too radical or angry... but personal experience is  the driving force.   Many of us, in spite of our pains, have crafted a successful life for ourselves.  Others struggle more.   But we all have scars.

If your daughter gets raped, should I say, "get over it" ?  Some of us, in fact, have been raped, and find the psychic rape of these programs infinitely more scarring.  

You know, it really upsets me to know that names and addresses are relayed in a manner that compromises any family's sense of safety. (And that is a problem experienced by BOTH sides.)

But I am also pained by the knowledge that program advocates want to take away the cathartic outlet of those who were hurt in these programs. I also feel that prospective parents should hear the flip side of the coin before warehousing their children in dubious hands.  For this purpose, splayed anger is not as constructive as surgically directed anger, BUT

I would rather spend a lifetime in box with the angriest, most imbalanced poster here, then one day in luxury with someone who condones and rationalizes the insidious abuses that occur at these programs.
/bump/


 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Very good stuff, heard alot of it a million times over, it never gets old, most of what your talking about here ended years ago and some still goes on. Many programs have evolved to become more subtle in their approach to children but abuse through intimidation just the same.
Parents, boy do they get a free ride here on fornits. We just can't turn to our own parents and let them have it. No...we have to continue to stuff these unsatisfied, confused feelings of hurt and pain. Point them at a more convenient detached enemy the program. Yes as I said, "programs should get there share but the parents that have and are supporting these abusive entities should be held accountable. Your/Our problems started long before we got to our perspective program and most if not all our problems manifested at home first. Then the program took a already confused hurt kid and pretty much finished the job of scaring them.
This "Troubled Teen Industry" needs to grasp hold of the parents and start slapping some sense into their lazy selfish self-centered asses, WTF is going on.

Danny
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline shanlea

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Re: One more thing about the who
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2010, 11:58:30 PM »
Are parents even held accountable in programs? Because in my experience, the parents are not accountable as long as the account is paid...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
hanlea

Offline shanlea

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Re: One more thing about the who
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2010, 12:12:02 AM »
One problem for me is just the word program. It invites the worst connotations.

Unfortunately, my parents could not do a google search to read the pros and cons of a particular program. Today, there are more opportunities for due diligence, but many people still trust "the experts." Many people are still afraid to accept offspring who simply think unconventionally. And youths are so criminalized that no weight is given to their voices when they attempt self advocacy. It is labeled "manipulation." Kids in programs really have no voice or recourse because they are dismissed as troubled, and in fact, programs will often entrench the stigma and heighten the level of familial distrust to unprecedented levels.  They look for opportunities to foment distrust because it isolates the kids from the parents, and effectively disempowers both youths and parents.

In a way, programs often dial things up when things don't need to be so dramatized.

I have 3 parents of students who have sent their kids to programs. In two cases, the parents could not accept their child was unconventional. In one case, the parent wanted to "re-educate" their gay child.  That one really broke my heart. In all three cases, the parent trusted the program because Jesus was in the mission statement. I can think of a million better ways to "treat" these children - none of them in a program.

We can blame parents all day long but why compound the problem by sending kids to a place that teaches them to label and distrust themselves?  You don't have to stand up and say, My Name is Bill and I am an alcoholic to recognize you have a problem.  I shouldn't have to adopt other people's values in order to bolster my self esteem and self efficacy. I shouldn't have to adhere to a group treatment when it is has nothing to do with what works for me as an individual.  You put a sane person in a loony bin and its no surprise they begin to absorb the environment.

One thing, too, that bothers me about many programs is that the staff become an insular cult clique and lose connection with the outer world. They often become too attached to institutional ideology and apply a very narrow program paradigm to all things and all people.

I do believe that many kids do need help, support, guidance, mentorship, love, and natural consequences.   The question is: Can you really get that in a program?  There are so many ways to grow and institutionalized growth rings inorganic and untrue to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
hanlea

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Re: Sad overgeneralization, as usual
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2010, 10:40:28 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "shanlea123"
Yes, the Troubled Teen industry does tend to incite extreme degrees or anger, sadness, disappointment, bitterness, and one other thing that we tend to mask: hurt. And pain for others who will suffer the same psychic scars we did.

It is a shame that there are those blind pro-program contingency continue to throw salt on indelible wounds of abuse, and call us "extreme hate mongers." Certainly, there is a faction who are extreme.   And while I don't condone threats and maps to dissidents' homes and families (on either side), I continue to marvel at the extreme insensitivity exhibited by those who support these programs. Insensitivity at the obvious pain and abuse suffered by thousands.  I think I prefer the extremism of those that are hot blooded over those that are cold hearted.

Maybe part of the problem is that it is easy for you to disregard us when we are "angry."  To you, it shows an imbalance.   Something easy for you to cast aside.

But really, isn't outrage appropriate? After all, we have all attended programs that:

1. Use bullying, badgering, spying, isolation, and coercion to exploit true, half true, and false stories of ourselves.

2. Use demeaning verbal and psychological abuse repeatedly to break us down.

3. Fail to individuate treatment or treat the individual with integrity.  

4. Fail to use proper therapeutic boundaries in treatment. How do we trust staff members who regale us with war stories of committing rape, manslaughter, molestation, and other deviancies while we work out our own issues?  Should we have to tell a GROUP of peers our most painful stories, only to be heckled and badgered and demeaned, while possibly a staff member committed the same  trauma inflicted on us in his "other life."   It is not uncommon for staff to join these programs to work out, in effect projecting, their own shit on us. Like the staff member who insisted  on me being a drug addict, even though I never was, and had in fact, not even seen drugs in six months prior to the program. Its hardly news that he himself was a hard core coke head who lost everything prior to CEDU. I can't tell you the number of staff who projected their eating disorders, their sexual histories, their drug addictions onto us, and basically hammered us until we accepted our newly revised histories and had to work on issues that didn't exist until we believed it ourselves.

5. Did I say there was little individuated treatment?

In addition:

6. What kind of place puts the upper level TEENAGERS in control of the psychological development (or should I say, devolution) of newcomers? It was like Lord of The Flies. Whoever bullies, castigates, puts down the best, wins.  

7. How does a daily onslaught of speaking to people in a demeaning, insulting fashion (slut, nigger, etc.) build them up? How is it elevating for an individual  to talk about themselves in a desultory way, daily and repeatedly? You are actually rewarded the more you put yourself down, with the greatest histrionics.

8. How can you argue that keeping students insulated from their families to the degree many programs operate is beneficial when this insularity has been so GROSSLY misused to manipulate families, students, and keep the program in the control pit?  If families can't talk to us, and we learn quickly the ramifications of speaking up, the school can and will say anything to keep the student under their thumbs.  This was systemic. And there is no checks and balances.

9. How can you subject young developing minds to confrontational style experientials, ranging from the four hour thrice weekly raps to the week long summits, where sleep and emotions are deftly manipulated to achieve a contrived dependence on program values and ideology, and an unnatural expectation of intensity in personal relationships?  These experentials were conceived for adults in serious mind control, money schemes such as Life Spring, EST, and synanon. They are not meant for kids. I would say they aren't meant for adults either, but hey, if you want to be psychically manipulated at the age of consent... whatever.

10. Parents do NOT know what really happens in raps and profeets. The demos they do are baby versions. Bullshit demos.  In programs like Straight, you don't see the crazy arm flaps--the motivating-- in open meetings that parents attend. Hell, no.... those are for show. Everyone knows to pile on the bullshit and act according to discretion in front of the parents or there will be hell to pay. In my program, everyone freely admits to, years later, the snow job they had to deliver during parent tours, OR ELSE!!  There was always that underlying tension of knowing you are required to play a part in order to survive a brutal onslaught later.

11. How many programs really prepare you for life outside? With REAL WORLD skills, relationships, and expectations? Because if there is one criticism amongst many ex programmees is that they left the program and were at a complete and total loss for how to function in the real world.

Now, of course, there are some transition programs, but they don't transition, they extend social ineptitude. (Why? Because social boundaries, expectations, and dynamics that we learn at these programs are contrived, unrealistic, and ideological...  Not to mention they rest on the premise of coerced intimacy and exploitation.

12.  The fall out, after years of isolation, insulation, psychological manipulation, daily, repeated verbal abuse en masse, and forced ingestion of rigid cult-like ideology at a critical stage of development takes decades to unravel.  You totally lose yourself and adopt some Stepford version of reality that doesn't exist....  or you go the other way, perhaps, and become the addict, prostitute, porn star, and bully you never were pre-program to live out the cult's depiction of you.  

In any event, you can't build someone up by treating them as a criminal class. You can't build them up by promoting coercion and forcing ideology of ONE way of thinking and acting.  You can't build people up when you teach a blatant disregard for self respect by continually forcing minors to verbally degrade and humiliate themselves in a group in order to be promoted through levels.   You can't build someone up when your whole program undermines the individual and operates on fraudulent psychodynamics.

You might dismiss some people on Fornits for being too radical or angry... but personal experience is  the driving force.   Many of us, in spite of our pains, have crafted a successful life for ourselves.  Others struggle more.   But we all have scars.

If your daughter gets raped, should I say, "get over it" ?  Some of us, in fact, have been raped, and find the psychic rape of these programs infinitely more scarring.  

You know, it really upsets me to know that names and addresses are relayed in a manner that compromises any family's sense of safety. (And that is a problem experienced by BOTH sides.)

But I am also pained by the knowledge that program advocates want to take away the cathartic outlet of those who were hurt in these programs. I also feel that prospective parents should hear the flip side of the coin before warehousing their children in dubious hands.  For this purpose, splayed anger is not as constructive as surgically directed anger, BUT

I would rather spend a lifetime in box with the angriest, most imbalanced poster here, then one day in luxury with someone who condones and rationalizes the insidious abuses that occur at these programs.
/bump/


 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Very good stuff, heard alot of it a million times over, it never gets old, most of what your talking about here ended years ago and some still goes on. Many programs have evolved to become more subtle in their approach to children but abuse through intimidation just the same.
Parents, boy do they get a free ride here on fornits. We just can't turn to our own parents and let them have it. No...we have to continue to stuff these unsatisfied, confused feelings of hurt and pain. Point them at a more convenient detached enemy the program. Yes as I said, "programs should get there share but the parents that have and are supporting these abusive entities should be held accountable. Your/Our problems started long before we got to our perspective program and most if not all our problems manifested at home first. Then the program took a already confused hurt kid and pretty much finished the job of scaring them.
This "Troubled Teen Industry" needs to grasp hold of the parents and start slapping some sense into their lazy selfish self-centered asses, WTF is going on.

Danny
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