The issue from a parents perspective

[Che Gookin]

I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.

The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.

[Oz girl]

One thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that in many quarters it is the judiciary, the medical establishment and the church that play a major part in encouraging a tough love approach and the programs that benefit from this. Numerous parents have as somebody mentioned been actively encouraged to send their kids to programs by phsychs. Others have asked the opinion of their friendly family Doctor or local religious minister and been pointed in the direction of programs. Many programs take kids who have been sentenced by judges and some laywers work with ed cons to plea bargain a program.
 I have never doubted that some parents who send their kids to programs are unrelenting tyrants. The same sort of people here just treat their kids like shit without needing to spend 60 k. But by the same token there seems to be a large number of people who are being sent in the direction of programs by the social leaders that any reasonable person turns to when they need help. It is the wider philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance and the laws that support it which need changing. While these things exist this industry will thrive

[Troll Control]

I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.

The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.

Well, we do know what he has previously stated:

1.  Daughter was drinking and getting high within hours of returning home
2.  Daughter cut TheWho out of her life and stopped speaking to/seeing him immediately upon returning home

Sure, sounds like she had a great, helpful and efficacious stay at ASR.  :roll:  :cry:

Look, TheWho is a liar with a financial stake in ASR.  He doesn't even care that he has to pimp his daughter's story (even though he made up 90% of it) to put a positive spin on ASR.  He neglects to mention that above two points caused by his relationship with an abusive program and his forcing his daughter into two years of confinement against her will.

[Oz girl]

ALA also ignored a girls suicide attempt, publically humiliated her and thne acted shocked when she threw herself in front of a moving vehicle. The same ALA "peer group" had one boy expelled for stealing drugs (cured him!!) and another boy die in his first year of university from alcohol poisoning. As a sad post script the dead boy's father was so heartbroken that in spite of being a millionaire ex athlete he went nuts and robbed a jewelley store.
The big sucess story of that peer group Bianca was set there because her father feared she would end up pregnant. She got pregnant in her first year of uni. All of these kids came from a "peer group" so lauded within the school they were referred to as the Gurus. i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic

[Deborah]

i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic

Did you mean ASR?

[TheWho]

TSW Wrote:

Did George Miller put any survivors on the stand?

No..

Will George Miller put any survivors on the stand?
Last reports indicate No...

It goes to show the level of sincerity from the good offices of George Miller at giving the true victims of this evil empire their day in the spotlight. George Miller in my opinion is playing up the human tradgedy elements of the grieving parents for a few quick sound bites. The man is an unscruplious charlatan whose only contribution will be to pave the way for a few weak regulations that will have no real impact over the long run.

Miller made a good choice, I dont think it is a reflection on his sincerity.  What end result would you expect by putting kids who attended these programs on the stand?  I think showing that these boot camps are causing childrens deaths should be enough to raise the awareness.

It would have been risky, in my opinion, to have the kids versus the parents.

@Joyce:  you brought your daughter up I didnt.  I never referred to her.  If you continue to have an issue with this PM me if you like



...

[TheWho]

One thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that in many quarters it is the judiciary, the medical establishment and the church that play a major part in encouraging a tough love approach and the programs that benefit from this. Numerous parents have as somebody mentioned been actively encouraged to send their kids to programs by phsychs. Others have asked the opinion of their friendly family Doctor or local religious minister and been pointed in the direction of programs. Many programs take kids who have been sentenced by judges and some laywers work with ed cons to plea bargain a program.
 I have never doubted that some parents who send their kids to programs are unrelenting tyrants. The same sort of people here just treat their kids like shit without needing to spend 60 k. But by the same token there seems to be a large number of people who are being sent in the direction of programs by the social leaders that any reasonable person turns to when they need help. It is the wider philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance and the laws that support it which need changing. While these things exist this industry will thrive

Oz, Although, I agree with the majority of what you say, but I am not too sure the philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance is what is driving the industry.  The vast majority of the parents that I have spoken with were not tough on their children or had zero tolerance in their households.  Mostly it was just the opposite.  Many families opt for the tough love, zero tolerance when everything else seems to have failed and finally turn to a school or program which is highly structured and has a zero tolerance policy.

Allowing kids to have too much freedom, lack of supervision, lack of structure etc. at a very young age and then introducing zero tolerance suddenly when the child becomes a teenager just doesn’t work well at home.  The root cause of why these institutions are thriving lies somewhere in the way society has headed in the last few decades with both parents out of the household, the public school system going to hell and the media which the kids are exposed to far too much.



...

[hanzomon4]

i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic

Did you mean ASR?

Yeah, that's ASR

[Troll Control]

I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.

The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.

Well, we do know what he has previously stated:

1.  Daughter was drinking and getting high within hours of returning home
2.  Daughter cut TheWho out of her life and stopped speaking to/seeing him immediately upon returning home

Sure, sounds like she had a great, helpful and efficacious stay at ASR.  :roll:  :cry:

Look, TheWho is a liar with a financial stake in ASR.  He doesn't even care that he has to pimp his daughter's story (even though he made up 90% of it) to put a positive spin on ASR.  He neglects to mention that above two points caused by his relationship with an abusive program and his forcing his daughter into two years of confinement against her will.

Let's not lose sight of exactly what TheWho is.  He experienced utter failure with his daughter at ASR, yet he still continues to try to defend the industry as a whole against any and all legitimate claims of abuse or neglect.

It's the $$$$$$, people.

[Anne Bonney]

I'm a parent.  In my experience the biggest problem in the "help" industry which includes psychiatrists and psychologists, not just RTCs is that very few so-called "professionals" have the balls to examine and point out the problems in the entire family situation.  Almost all parents lack the courage to take a hard, honest look into how their behavior and attitudes have helped to get the entire family to where they are.  Many parents seem to be much more psychologically fragile then their "troubled" kids.  They cannot really take close examination or anything smacking of criticism.  The so-called "professionals" cater to those who control the purse strings.  No one becomes a "troubled teen" overnight; it is a from birth process.  Most parents don't realize that they cannot really control kids; they can and do influence them, in good and bad ways.  Good influence starts in childhood and begins with trust.  There seems to be two major parenting modes with thousands of variations and they are:  1) I'm the parent, the boss and you better do what I say or else.  Do as I say, not as I do.  2) I'm the parent and my desire is to guide, protect and honor your humanity.  I will live my life as an example you can trust.  
How can we hold kids "accountable" if we don't hold ourselves accountable?   I know this doesn't help once people find themselves at the mercy of the industry and are at a loss.  Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up.  And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.

What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant  is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them.  Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop.  And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes.  Such is life.

 :tup:  :tup:

The abuse is what's most important to me

I shall feel the sting of HOW Michelle was treated while in the care of others for the rest of my life.

I shall continue to stay focused on the abuse until something is done that will hold this industry accountable for treating children this way.  

I REPEAT.............

I could not have DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her and walked away a free person.  Why is it that in this industry it's acceptable to treat children this way?

Yes, I was lied to.  That hurts too.  People lie to get what they want, OR to cover up something they've done that is wrong.  The lies we were told are not what killed my daughter.  It was the "mindset" that was created, nurished, and fed to the people within this industry that killed my daughter.  

I too am grateful for the GAO report and what Congressman Miller hopes to accomplish.  

BUT, I believe that until this industry is held accountable at the same level a parent would be held accountable, kids will continue to be neglected, abused, molested and die in this industry.

A "mindset" cannot be regulated.  It needs to be weeded out.  How?  By holding the people with the "mindset" accountable for their actions.

Now, if this post ends up at the bottom of this forum, we know it must have hit a nerve.

It's the LEGAL ABUSE that hurts the most.

Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton

 :tup:  :tup:

Once again you jump to my defense, but let me get this one.  As a survivor, I am a sucessful, happily married mom and gramma, and while my son was a handful during his early to mid teens, I never once considered handing the job of raising my child to someone else.  I taught him that actions come with consequences, but that fear had no place in a parent child relationship, and I tough-loved him right through his rebellion.  I run two support and healing groups for survivors who have also fought the good fight to overcome the abuse they suffered.  I will not candy coat it for you, some survivors only survive in the fact that they still draw air.  Some were so horribly abused they will never recover, but most have come out the other side a little wiser, a little tougher, and a lot more outspoken.  That seems to be the issue you have a problem with.  I know as a parent to give any credibility to survivors you would have to except the guilt, and for some parents this is something they cannot do, but you as a parent, even if you were lied to, were not abused.  You were not forced to kneel on pencils in a bathtub for over 8 hours and struck if you so much as tried to reposition your weight, you were not forced to brush you teeth until your gums bled for four days because you dared to ask for a new toothbrush, you were not raped and told that no one would believe you, you were not forced to eat food with bugs in it.  So, yes while your trust was betrayed, your child was abused.  Survivors who have come through and are willing to tell the story have earned the right, if you don't like it, don't listen, but don't you dare judge.  And another thing, don't accuse people of being junkies, that is rude and demoralizing.  I was sent to the program I was in, not for drug use, but because my father was a pedophile and my mom couldn't dump me back on him.

 :tup:  :tup:

[Joyce Harris]

Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.

You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !

Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up."  You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.

I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.

I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.

You are rude -  you use word games-  you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.

It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments.  I have nothing else to say to you, at this time.  Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!

[Troll Control]

Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.

You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !

Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up."  You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.

I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.

I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.

You are rude -  you use word games-  you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.

It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments.  I have nothing else to say to you, at this time.  Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!

You got that right, sweets.  TheWho engages constantly in behaviors for which he degrades others.  

He's a program pimp and his daughter is his number one 'ho.  

He just conveniently leaves out how her life was shattered, how she turned to alcohol and drugs as soon as she got home and how she cut him out of her life.  

That wouldn't sell the program, would it?

[TheWho]

Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.

You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !

Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up."  You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.

I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.

I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.

You are rude -  you use word games-  you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.

It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments.  I have nothing else to say to you, at this time.  Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!

Go back and look at the posts again.  You were the one addressing my post first and dragged your daughter into it, not me, I never mentioned that she wasn’t presentable or even the words  â€œshabby, ex-junkie hippy typeâ€

[CCM girl 1989]

Thanks for your contribution, Niles, its good to see you are trying out words.  The next step might be to stop bashing what others write and contribute an opinion of your own.  Maybe start focusing on helping out some kids/parents instead of trolling.
Give it a try.

You're new here aren't you?

No, that's what you do 99.99999% of the time. But, of course you can't contribute much since you have no understanding of it. You never went to a program.

[ABOUT TO SNAP]

[.  Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up.  And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.

What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant  is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them.  Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop.  And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes.  Such is life.[/quote]


god damn I hate it when i cry at fornits. I wish to god my mom would spend two hours at this stupid website.
thank you for your intelligent post. too bad you sent your kid to pigfucking school. but at least you understand us better now, right?