Author Topic: The issue from a parents perspective  (Read 13857 times)

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Offline hanzomon4

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The issue from a parents perspective
« on: October 29, 2007, 01:06:32 AM »
What is the issue from a parents perspective? What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?  

I really just want to understand what the issue is for parents in the larger issue of institutionalized child abuse?

And please, please folks don't flame this thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2007, 02:09:15 AM »
Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!

These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.

Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.

What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?

It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.  

I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!
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Offline hanzomon4

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2007, 02:54:28 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!

These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.

Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.

What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?

It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.  

I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!


Ok I want to limit my commentary, but I must say that many survivors are not junkies or kids. Take Ursus, Rachel, Psy, Zen's Daughter(she is a kid), Deborah's son, Lorri Picklemire, Kat, Julia Scheers, Kev, Shelby Earnshaw, Lou Lou Carter, Rebecca Ramirez, and others I can't think of right now for example. They are not Junkies and are very well spoken, not to mention extremely intelligent. You don't think that they know more about what actually goes on in programs then parents? And isn't part of the problem a failure to listen to these kids who have been trying to warn parents for decades about abuse?

I'm sure that kids being locked in dog cages, being forced to eat their own vomit, beatings, and cover ups by powerful political forces sounds out of this world. However all of these things have been proven to be true and not just conspiracy theories.

It's also important to note that it was these kids(many now adults) who not only kept this issue alive but also won the ear of the APA's Astart and Rep.Miller. Of course parents like Cathy Sutton, PBmom, and the Parents at the GAO hearing have been great allies but at every moment they emphasise the need to listen to these shabby kids and consistently affirm their right to speak. And while you may not hold fornits in high regard you can't dismiss the impact of survivor run orgs like ISAC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2007, 03:31:27 AM »
Though I suspect the anon is trolling the post provided does show a prevailing attitude that is amongst a large majority of the parent population in regards to survivors.

I bet if you asked several of the survivors you named they'd tell you that they have dealt with patronizing condescending attitudes of parents before. Bottom line though.. George miller really did fail when he didn't put one single survivor on the stand.

Parents can not speak for the horrors of their children.. they can only be a witness to the recanting of the tragic tales and shouldn't ever be the one to retell them to the public. The pain and suffering experienced by the survivor population is for the survivor population alone to retell.

Not these opportunistic prats who look down their nose at the survivors as if they are a collection of strung out needle jockies, serial killers, and bed wetters.
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Offline hanzomon4

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2007, 03:35:21 AM »
What about some of you other parents that post here, what are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline Karass

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2007, 06:27:15 AM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?


All of that is important -- abuse, lack of options, deception -- and yes I put a lot of stock in what survivors say they have experienced. Like the old saying 'where there's smoke there's fire' -- there have been way too many kids killed, abused and psychologically harmed for any sensible person to say the complaints are due to a few disgruntled individuals.

Any intelligent parent that has done a little bit of web research should draw the conclusion that there are a lot of con artists in this industry, and that overall, this 'teen help' business is really foul. But that doesn't mean they stop looking for help if they have a child who really needs help and has not been getting it from local resources. It is these well-meaning parents -- the ones who truly want the best for their kids -- who are most easily seduced by an ed con or someone else who comes along promising a 'good program' -- something that promises real therapy, a real education, a healthy environment and some wholesome fun activities. Maybe such programs exist, maybe they don't. But there is no question that thousands of parents with 'troubled teens' are looking for exactly that, after everything else they've tried seems to have gone nowhere.

The part of the movement against institutionalized child abuse that advocates are not addressing nearly enough is the lack of local resources and options. Yes, every city of any size has it's share of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, drug abuse counselors, etc. Most parents try several of these before they even think about something as extreme as a residential program. But these local resources are often ineffective in offering much help. Most psychiatrists are all about putting kids on powerful drugs, and many psychologists are too easily bullshitted by kids who are just going through the motions because their parents expect them to 'give therapy a try.

Some kids might need therapy, but every kid needs much more than that -- they need direction, a sense of purpose, a feeling of self-worth, they need healthy relationships with friends and family, they need fun, love, worthwhile things to do with their time, and lots of other things. They need all those same things that we adults need, but some kids seem to have a tough time finding them or even accepting them when they're simply given to them.

It's easy to blame parents for 'not being a parent,' and it's so easy for others to judge when they haven't walked in a parent's shoes. Parenting is the toughest job there is, and what works well for one kid doesn't always work for another -- even in the same family. Programs don't offer solutions, but neither do many other people. We're all out here on our own trying to figure this out step by step. We don't have all the answers and sometimes our kids throw us curve ball after curve ball, to the point where we sometimes feel completely incompetent and helpless to do anything right.

We can't make our kids stop their attempts to destroy their lives, but since we love them we can still express our concerns and try to persuade them to get help and to make better decisions. We sure could use a little bit of support, especially someone or something or someplace in our own communities.

I sometimes laugh at the way 'insanedeadorinjail' is discussed here as if it's complete bullshit. Yes, programs feed on parents' fears and use this as part of the sales process. And the anti-program criticism is valid -- most kids don't die or go insane or end up in jail. But that's little comfort to a parent of a kid who has tried to commit suicide or been to the ER for a drug overdose, or who has a history of mental health problems or who has had multiple run-ins with the law. Or worse, a parent of a kid who has experienced all of the above. Again, programs don't have any answers, but the really sad and frustrating thing is...neither does anybody else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline Che Gookin

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2007, 08:54:03 AM »
Whenever I hear options I get nearly get sick and almost throw up on my cat. Well I had a cat but my gobshite Korean boss made me get rid of him and my only options were to either chuck him into a river in a gunny sack or beg my friend into taking him. Thankfully my friend took the cat.

But back to my point.. Options..

What are options to a kid?

Sounds to me like that stands for a creative way of torturing children in privately funded programmes.

There is only one choice..

Be a fucking parent from the day they are born.

Problem I have with these Options is rarely does the kid ever get a say in the manner.

Sure these options are prolly well intentioned..

But for the most part the end up looking or being no better than the shitholes we honk about day in and day out here on fucknuts.

Parents are screaming for wrap around programmes, special services in the communities, better school systems, and blah blah blah..

WTf happened to parents like actually raising their kids from the day the were crapped out into the doctor/midwife/crackheads hands?

These options really tend to scare me more than what we have now. After all they are just another wrinkle in the age old game of parents handing over the responsibility for the fruits of their loins to a 3rd party care taker.

Here is an option for you.. GROW SOME BALLS!
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Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 09:11:15 AM »
Karass,  Great post, thank you.
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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 10:16:59 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!

These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.

Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 10:17:31 AM »
Quote from: ""Rogue Admin""
Whenever I hear options I get nearly get sick and almost throw up on my cat. Well I had a cat but my gobshite Korean boss made me get rid of him and my only options were to either chuck him into a river in a gunny sack or beg my friend into taking him. Thankfully my friend took the cat.

But back to my point.. Options..

What are options to a kid?

Sounds to me like that stands for a creative way of torturing children in privately funded programmes.

There is only one choice..

Be a fucking parent from the day they are born.

Problem I have with these Options is rarely does the kid ever get a say in the manner.

Sure these options are prolly well intentioned..

But for the most part the end up looking or being no better than the shitholes we honk about day in and day out here on fucknuts.

Parents are screaming for wrap around programmes, special services in the communities, better school systems, and blah blah blah..

WTf happened to parents like actually raising their kids from the day the were crapped out into the doctor/midwife/crackheads hands?

These options really tend to scare me more than what we have now. After all they are just another wrinkle in the age old game of parents handing over the responsibility for the fruits of their loins to a 3rd party care taker.

Here is an option for you.. GROW SOME BALLS!

:tup: ::rocker::
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Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 11:48:22 AM »
[/b]

1.   A new medication that will take time to see if it works or makes a difference

2.   A new approach to see if Johnny will go back to school, stop stealing cars, leaving pills around the house for his 2 year old sister to ingest,  hitting his mother, cutting themselves, leaving razors on the floor……

3.   Do nothing.


Other options:

1.  The child dies.

2.  The child goes to jail.

3.   Therapeutic boarding schools:  The child is removed from their environment (which is toxic) and placed in a therapeutic environment where they learn to get over their problems, attend school, drug free, healthy diet, trained staff, individual therapy..

In short the parents are offered a solution to their childs problem, parents problem or family problem however you want to define it, that they can relate to.  Parents love solutions.. they don’t like:  Lets try this or lets see how Johnny is doing next year..lets wait and see… because there is little time left.

The problem is which school to choose… there isn’t much time.  If parents come onto sites like fornits they hear all schools are bad and they force kids to eat their own vomit and lock them in cages, which even for an uninformed person is viewed as weird and must be coming from people with an agenda or kids who didn’t do well or dropped out.  So who do parents turn to next?  Education Consultants… Yea!!!!!  They listen to our concerns, offer us coffee and maybe stickers for the little ones and they have a solution and a good fit for Johnny… so off to boarding school.  The problem is the educational consultants may not necessarily place Johnny’s best interests before their commission.

So who dropped the ball during this process… where can we see improvements made to help Johnny and his parents?

I think the people on fornits have the information, knowledge and skills to help people make a really good and informed decision for their family.  If this information could be filtered or organized in a way that parents can relate to, it could eventually help these parents/kids who are being placed outside the home for minor reason like "Pot Smoking" or expose schools which are a bad fit for them or out right abusive instead of telling them the entire industry is corrupt.





...
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Offline Karass

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2007, 11:53:33 AM »
TSW, please explain what "be a fucking parent" means and how "grow some balls" is any different than the tough love philosophy they taught you at Three Springs.

Yes, some of us want local services and local support, even if we aren't exactly sure what that means or what it would look like -- because what we have now sucks. Kids get kicked out of school these days for almost nothing. Kids get drugged up by shrinks for having the slightest bit of feelings or anger or frustration. Kids get arrested for doing the same things their parents got away with decades ago. A lot of so-called professionals even recommend residential programs for kids with 'problems' -- meaning kids who don't fit society's definition of normal.

Society has declared war on wayward youth, and sometimes parents could use a little help trying to navigate through the battlefield. Kids today aren't allowed to just grow up and grow out of it the way their parents' generation was allowed to. In addition to being teachers, role models, disciplinarians, care-givers, providers and all the other things a parent needs to be, sometimes one of our most important jobs is to be advocates for our own children -- because nobody else cares about them like we do, and sometimes the system would rather throw them away than lend a hand.

Some kids really do wish things in their lives were better. That doesn't mean they want to be head shrunk until they're convinced they're nuts, and it doesn't mean they want to get sent away. Sometimes it just means they wish things didn't suck so bad, that they were treated with some respect and that they had something better to look forward to -- a future with a little less oppression and a little more tolerance. And sometimes parents can be a lot less oppressive and a lot more tolerant than the big bad world.
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Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2007, 12:21:45 PM »
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2007, 01:21:55 PM »
There is an obvious option that you are leaving out-- and it is the only one that has been *proven* to work in numerous controlled trials.

That is, community-based family therapy using either cognitive-behavioral, functional or multisystemic technique.

Though multisystemic family therapy is currently only available to kids in the justice system, it has been shown in 9 clinical trials to reduce drug use, violence, incarceration and family tensions.  This research includes kids with serious antisocial behavior and drug problems-- it's not like the "studies" on residential programs which are uncontrolled and also confounded by the fact that many of the kids sent there actually don't have problems serious enough to warrant treatment in the first place, so unsurprisingly, they do Ok afterwards.

Most kids are *NOT* in a "toxic" environment-- and if they are, they are going to have to learn to deal with being in it sooner or later because that's where they are going to be when they get out.  The minority of parents who send their kids to these programs who are abusive (ie, most parents who send their kids are trying to help, not harm, but some are genuinely abusive) are not going to be any less abusive when the kid is finished and he's still going to have that family to deal with at some point.

Institutionalizing people doesn't teach them to live in the real world-- it teaches them to conform to an institution.  This is why most addiction treatment now takes place outpatient-- for all but the most serious cases, it's better to deal with temptation right from the start rather than give people an artificial situation which doesn't actually teach them how to deal with the temptation they will face the moment they leave.

And even in those serious cases, unless you are dealing with someone who has been homeless, uneducated and jobless for years, the inpatient portion of treatment should last at most a few months, not years.

What helps troubled families overcome their problems is teaching them how to communicate and support each other rather than to harm each other.  This cannot be done by splitting them up.
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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2007, 01:26:33 PM »
The abuse is what's most important to me

I shall feel the sting of HOW Michelle was treated while in the care of others for the rest of my life.

I shall continue to stay focused on the abuse until something is done that will hold this industry accountable for treating children this way.  

I REPEAT.............

I could not have DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her and walked away a free person.  Why is it that in this industry it's acceptable to treat children this way?

Yes, I was lied to.  That hurts too.  People lie to get what they want, OR to cover up something they've done that is wrong.  The lies we were told are not what killed my daughter.  It was the "mindset" that was created, nurished, and fed to the people within this industry that killed my daughter.  

I too am grateful for the GAO report and what Congressman Miller hopes to accomplish.  

BUT, I believe that until this industry is held accountable at the same level a parent would be held accountable, kids will continue to be neglected, abused, molested and die in this industry.

A "mindset" cannot be regulated.  It needs to be weeded out.  How?  By holding the people with the "mindset" accountable for their actions.

Now, if this post ends up at the bottom of this forum, we know it must have hit a nerve.

It's the LEGAL ABUSE that hurts the most.

Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
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