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Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2007, 07:10:06 PM »
To respond to a point that was brought on a previous post:

I think it was a wise and intentional choice for George Miller to have parents of kids who died testify.  I think they would have the larger impact and carry a direct and united message to the hearing.  What can be worse than death?  What more could a person who was abused by a boot camp contribute?  Parents (older people) in general hold more credibility in hearings of this type then do younger people.  (look at the ages of the men and women on the panel)

If they had a person who went thru a boot camp testifying and he was wearing a nice new suit and seemed to be doing well, Phd from an Ivy league school, it may not have the same impact if he talked about how he was forced to carry boulders around or eat crappy food or sleep without a blanket etc.  The panel may all be thinking “Wow, look how well this guy turned out, I wonder how bad off this kid was before he went in….. the place seems to have worked for him… don’t agree with the treatment but it seems effective.

Or if they brought in a person who was angry and outraged,  Green hair,  4-5 lbs of piercings and screaming 4 letter words the entire time,  I don’t think the panel would be focusing too much on what they were saying.
 
Miller was wise, in my opinion… Death beats out abuse any day (if you want to get peoples attention), besides the GAO guy added that he had thousands of reports of abuse, so what would have been gained by bringing in random people.

As an added Note:  The parents who testified, although I don’t know them, didn’t strike me as the type to dump their kids off because they needed a break from parenting and flew off to Hawaii.  They appeared to be engaged with their children thru the entire process.



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Offline Anonymous

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2007, 07:42:51 PM »
Go over to Cafety and read the survivors testimonials.

Second, POWS's have testified before Congress.  These kids are no different.

Personally what disappointed me is the quality of the media reports following the hearing.  As expected, they focused on the parents who testified, not really cutting into the meat on the bone.  Here we are, 19 days later and the media dropped this issue like a hot potato.

Bill Boyles was supposed to be on Geraldo with Maia Szalavitz.  They got cut to make room for a story about Anna Nicole Smith.

What does that tell ya?  Abused kids isn't headline news.
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Offline hanzomon4

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2007, 07:52:20 PM »
Well Who I'm glad that most parents disagree with you. Good discussion folks, please continue.
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2007, 11:35:12 PM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Well Who I'm glad that most parents disagree with you. Good discussion folks, please continue.


You mention in your Opening Post that you didnt want any flaming and we all respected that and then you take pot shots at parents who responded.  Why would you want to do that?  I didnt see where most parents addressed my posts let alone disagreed with me.  

Try to take a more mature approach, this is a good discussion and I think many parents (as well as kids) could benefit.



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Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2007, 11:52:10 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Go over to Cafety and read the survivors testimonials.

Second, POWS's have testified before Congress.  These kids are no different.

Personally what disappointed me is the quality of the media reports following the hearing.  As expected, they focused on the parents who testified, not really cutting into the meat on the bone.  Here we are, 19 days later and the media dropped this issue like a hot potato.

Bill Boyles was supposed to be on Geraldo with Maia Szalavitz.  They got cut to make room for a story about Anna Nicole Smith.

What does that tell ya?  Abused kids isn't headline news.


I agree and I dont want to take away from peoples testimonies.  I remember POW's testifying and that worked really well (for them).  They were fighting for our country and they were supposed to look that way, its what we expected, we saw them on TV all the time.  

But I also remember when hippies would present themselves and all everyone saw was the hair, beads, clothing... they were different, looked different and thats what the older people focused on (not what they had to say).

I had a really good conversation with one of my fathers collages when I was in college (showing off my new found knowledge) and after I was  done explaining something to him (or my point of view) he said to me "You should cut your hair, why do you have to embarrass your father like that you seem like a smart boy".  The guy didnt hear anything I said, he was focused on my appearance.

So you see George Miller knew his audience and was trying to get as much attention and buy in as he could.....to get some momentum going, some outrage maybe… he didn’t intend to slight the kids who were abused by not having them there, he just thought it could be counterproductive.  I would have been pissed too, but that’s the way it works.



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Offline Anonymous

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Who doesn't want to hear from survivors.
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2007, 12:01:22 AM »
The who does not want to hear it out of any survivor, in order for that to happen he would have to admit that they suffered abuse in one of the centers that he swares don't abuse kids.  You cant hide it when they screw up and kill a kid, so he figures you might as well let the parents speak, but abused survivors, no way.  He is right though dead is worse than abused.  I agree with that , but here is the fact dead is abused to the nth degree, and every child who is abused in one of these programs is a possible death.  It only takes the out of control adult being just a little too out of control and what would have been a beating is now a funeral.  Or they flat out torture a kid until he/she takes their own life.  Then there is another set of parents grieving for their lost child.  When does it stop Who?  When is enough going to be enough?  How many kids have to die before the industry admits there is a problem?  Or are you going to use the same old tired line about most programs being safe?  That is a joke.  I am just glad the government is paying a little more attention, and maybe the next time a kid is killed someone will be charged and go to prison for it instead of it getting brushed under the rug again.
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Offline Joyce Harris

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2007, 12:06:28 AM »
Mr. The Who,
I am a parent, who has a child who was abused in a program - Whitmore Academy; and I have no hard feelings about the people Congressman Miller chose to speak at the GAO Hearing.

BUT, I do resent your assumption that survivors, including my daughter, would not be "presentable" as a spokesperson before Miller's hearing; or any other government body.

I also resent your assumption that the abuses that suvivors, including my daughter, suffered at the programs they were enrolled in were simply "carrying boulders, eating crappy food, or sleeping without a blanket."  You have no idea what abuses my daughter suffered - and frankly, it's none of your business.  BUT, you do not speak for me, as a parent; and you show your absolute ignorance, and total lack of compassion for victims of program abuse when you post your self-serving statements.

You invite posters to "flame at you" as you wish to call it. But, I will not allow you to miminize my daughter's abuse; or for you to compare her to a "hippy."

You owe every abuse victim, survivor;and parent on this forum an apology.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2007, 12:27:55 AM »
We should just ban him so he doesn't disrupt anything anymore!

He's program industry PR and spin doctoring, we KNOW he is, but a new comer could get tricked by his dumb shit because he's a very good misdirector in discussions and arguments, and a good manipulator of words and the facts.

To a trained observer (or just a well informed one) he's a prime example of what we talk about with the lies from the industry, but to everyone else he's what he wants to look like.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2007, 12:59:13 AM »
Quote from: ""Joyce Harris""
Mr. The Who,
I am a parent, who has a child who was abused in a program - Whitmore Academy; and I have no hard feelings about the people Congressman Miller chose to speak at the GAO Hearing.

BUT, I do resent your assumption that survivors, including my daughter, would not be "presentable" as a spokesperson before Miller's hearing; or any other government body.

I also resent your assumption that the abuses that suvivors, including my daughter, suffered at the programs they were enrolled in were simply "carrying boulders, eating crappy food, or sleeping without a blanket."  You have no idea what abuses my daughter suffered - and frankly, it's none of your business.  BUT, you do not speak for me, as a parent; and you show your absolute ignorance, and total lack of compassion for victims of program abuse when you post your self-serving statements.

You invite posters to "flame at you" as you wish to call it. But, I will not allow you to miminize my daughter's abuse; or for you to compare her to a "hippy."

You owe every abuse victim, survivor;and parent on this forum an apology.


Who do you think you are?  You dont know me at all nor my daughter and what she went thru either.  I dont speak for you and you dont speak for me.  I wasnt talking about your daughter and I didnt say she wouldnt be presentable.  I didn’t say anyone wouldn’t be presentable (by my views).  I believe I said: “ I don’t think they (the panel) would see them as presentableâ€
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2007, 01:11:12 AM »
Who, you're a joke.

I'll let people use the "Search" button or talk to me to find out what I've done for themselves.

I'll let Joyce deal with you, she'd do better than I. I'd not want to be on the receiving side of her scorned.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline hanzomon4

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2007, 01:11:21 AM »
LOL, I'm not flaming you... Just glad that most parents, the GAO, and Rep.Miller don't share your view of survivors.

Also if you feel offended by my post please do start a thread about it in the OFFA, K?
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline Che Gookin

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2007, 01:24:16 AM »
Did George Miller put any survivors on the stand?

No..

Will George Miller put any survivors on the stand?

Last reports indicate No...

It goes to show the level of sincerity from the good offices of George Miller at giving the true victims of this evil empire their day in the spotlight. George Miller in my opinion is playing up the human tradgedy elements of the grieving parents for a few quick sound bites. The man is an unscruplious charlatan whose only contribution will be to pave the way for a few weak regulations that will have no real impact over the long run.

Keep dreaming that this man is in your corner. He didn't even have the stones to put a survivor on the witness list for his hearing. Instead he put 3 parents(who by all means had a right to be there.. no contending that), Dr. Allison Pinto(had no right there), and some retarded monkey from Nutsack(who was perfect for G. Miller's little vote gaining drama).

It is my hope that George Miller shows the dignity to step in front of a moving bus in the near future. That alone will garner all the headlines we need to move this issue further into the mainstream.
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Offline Che Gookin

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2007, 01:27:04 AM »
Quote from: ""Karass""
TSW, please explain what "be a fucking parent" means and how "grow some balls" is any different than the tough love philosophy they taught you at Three Springs.



Being a fucking parent means not sending your son to a wilderness programme and then stalling for 7 weeks before removing despite the advice of others.

Any more questions?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2007, 01:51:02 AM »
Holy shit I'm not the only one speaking his mind and telling it like it is now!  :rofl:
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Joyce Harris

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The issue from a parents perspective
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2007, 03:18:54 AM »
Mr. The Who,

I never said I was speaking "for you," I was speaking "to you."

I most certainly did not use any profanity when addressing you, either, did I?
If you find it proper to say "screw you" to a woman, when talking to her - that is your choice.

I do not know how I brought any abuse upon you with my mentality.

You will have to identify who the colletive "us" might be that you want me "to get back to."  I'm not certain who your friends might be.

I most certainly never attacked your daughter.  I was responding to your post - and your post did not include "My daughter and I think......"  You were posting and speaking for YOURSELF, and made no reference to your daughter.  Therefore, I do not owe your daughter any apology -- because nothing I posted was directed to anyone except YOU.

I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all.  If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.

I have no problem with hippies; and you are quite welcome to remain one; if that is what you choose - but, I do prefer that you not include my young daughter in your reference as a hippy. That is my choice.  Last time I checked, I am entitled to choices.

I also have the same right that you have, and I do not have to listen to your DROLL, either, now do I?
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