Author Topic: What if it were a choice?  (Read 2769 times)

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Offline lorrispickelmire

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What if it were a choice?
« on: October 10, 2007, 08:17:13 PM »
What would you think about a program that was totally voluntary and the teen had to apply themselves to get in, go through an interview process, and was screened to make sure they really wanted to be there?
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Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 08:47:59 PM »
That would be your garden variety academic boarding school, not a program. The issue isn't whether the kid wants the school or not, but whether the school wants the kid or not. If the kid has any sort of history, the answer will be sorry, go somewhere else.
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Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 09:11:34 PM »
I think it would probably ok by fornits given these 17 (and probably more to be added later) conditions

1. Every detail of the program is explained prior to admission. No hidden rules, no catches.

2. the program functions exactly as advertised.

3. there is accountability. if a student feels have been abused they may contact a third party at any time, for any reason.

4. The students may leave at their own free will, and if the student decides to leave, the school takes appropriate measures to get them home safely. no "he can leave at any time, but we're in the middle of nowhere so he's not going anywhere" bullshit.

5. all Staff are screened, all staff hold appropriate degrees.

6. Kids are not encouraged to tattle on each other.

7. No forced excersize, labor, or hikes.

8. academics are up to par.

9. the idea of "addiction is a disease" is scrapped. put an emphasis on moderation rather than total abstinence. instead of 12 steps, just focus on personal responsibility and maturity and the rest will follow.

10. There is a doctor and certified nurse available at anytime at student's request.

11. No psychotropic medication shall be given out, unless it is a serious matter such as szchizophrenia or clinical depression, this shall be closely monitored by a panel (meaning multiples) of doctors and given out by the certified nurse.

12. The school is secular, with no ties to religion. all staff must be non-religious, (not neccesarily atheist, but not mormon or other assorted jesus freak). God, jesus, buddha, etc are never mentioned or talked about unless the student brings it up.  Arangements are made for students to study and practice their religion of choice, wheather it be christianity, budhism, wicca, even voodoo if they wish.  

13. The school does not treat homosexuality, or consider it an issue

14. the school does not take court-ordered or violent students

15. the school focuses on one specific issue, like addiction. will not treat multiple types of issues, e.g no eating disordered, spoiled or suicidal kids if youre treating the addicted; unless the student has a combination of issues e.g is suicidal because of eating disorder.

16. marijuana is not considered an issue, although it can be prohibited on campus. neither are kids who simply skip school, hang with "the wrong crowd", are "sleeping around", or "spend too much time on the computer".

17. the students attendance of the institution does not affect his/her chances of getting into another school or college in the future.


If anyone feels there should be more, or you want to change the above, feel free to do so.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 09:52:29 PM »
That would make it a normal fucking school with therapy.

A normal school with therapy is that, a normal school with therapy, or therapy with schooling.

A program is, well, a program.

derp.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

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TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 10:25:57 PM »
if that is the case, then define "theraputic boarding school". the problem is that many schools claim to be "normal schools with therapy" to the goverment and [some] parents, yet turn out to be programs. examples: Hyde, Hidden Lake Academy, King George, Swift River among many others.    

there is way too many grey areas in this industry, and that is what programs thive off of. it's how they somehow manage to elude all acountability. since programs are not ordinary schools, yet they are not prisons, residential treatment centers or clinics either. there is no goverment oversight over what each individual school is required to do, since there is so much variety. instead of goverment acredditation, they collect niche market acreditations like NATSAP. thankfully, thats all about to change. i have a feeling the G.A.O hearing is the begining of the end for the likes of lichfeild, sembler, buccelato, scheff, and the rest of satan's spawn.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 11:09:47 PM »
Pass laws to protect the rights of children and programs will completely go away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 12:44:10 AM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Pass laws to protect the rights of children and programs will completely go away.



WRONG!

They will shift morph and emerge again. Consider the myth of the multi-headed hydra. For everyone head you lop off another or two more grow right back.

Protecting the rights of children is merely one step in the road to crushing this modern day bubonic plague called programmes. The way to root out this 'black death' of psychiatric care is a comprehensive long term education of the population.
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Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 01:03:07 AM »
You know what you call a 'voluntary' program?

A ghost town.
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Offline Oz girl

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 02:39:57 AM »
I don't think therapy has any role in traditional education. Hyde is the closest thing to this voluntary model and look at how unhappy many of its ex students are with the :"education" they got.
it is easy to forget that an average normal boarding school of any note has counsellors that a kid can have a chat to. if they need the treatment of an actual psychiatrist or psychologist parents can arrange this with many schools. As with any other regular medical appointment their housemother accompanies them to their appointment and they see the Dr privately while that person waits for them. If they need some sort of really intensive mental health treatment then boarding school may not be the answer for them.

For all that regular boarding school can be a good experience for many kids a, certain level of mental health and resilience is required to deal with the homesickness, group living and general relative lack of privacy. You don't get a lot of time to yourself as a boarder. If a kid is a bit on the fragile side, or has some sort of social or mental health disorder then it is possibly not the best choice.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline try another castle

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 04:36:43 AM »
Besides that, who decides what is truly voluntary anyway? Who will make that call?

Technically, I "voluntarily" came up for a campus tour. Then they told me "guess what? you're staying."
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Offline Oz girl

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 05:31:27 AM »
I would assume that voluntary would be like normal boarding school. it should be remembered that Ryan Lewis and Michelle Sutton both went to wilderness voluntarily. It was not any better for them than any of the kids dragged kicking and screaming in a van

Also choice is relative when you are a kid. my experience of school was not negative or abusive but it did not occur to me that I had a choice of school. i went to the school i did because my older sister went there and so did my female cousins. In yr 10 I boarded because it was a family tradition. I never thought about whether I even wanted to object. I guess if i were abjectly miserable my parents prolly would have discussed where to go from there with me.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline psy

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 05:56:28 AM »
Note:  Ok... so I'm going to address a host of things in this post since i've been away from the forum for a while.
Quote from: ""lorrispickelmire""
What would you think about a program that was totally voluntary and the teen had to apply themselves to get in, go through an interview process, and was screened to make sure they really wanted to be there?
Right...  So they can get conned like I did?!?!  Not everybody signed themselves in, some are/were just naive and a little too trusting.  I fell for their advertised bullshit, hook, line, and sinker.  As advertised, it sounded like a chill, laid back, boarding school.  I was lied to.  My parents were lied to.  I fell for it.  My parents fell for it.  It's not just parents all the time.  Anybody can fall for an effective, well executed con (except a con, of course, according to Benchmark and Charles E. Dederich).  The day my dad left I learned the definition of

Did you listen to those parents on the GAO hearings.  Did you listen to what Kevin Bacon's dad had to say?  Were you lsitening to that.  Are they not sorry.  Can we please stop fucking blaming ALL the parents for the actions of some when many are clearly contrite.  Some are ignorant, yes, but that does not mean they imply malice.  What I do:  Explain what they are saying means to survivors... they may not know the full details of what happened to their own kid, let along you, so sometimes parents unintentionally offend survivors...  We might not agree on everything, but there are a lot of parents who do believe in complete abolition of the industry.

Ok.  Now I'm going to go off on the Who:

TheWho, on the other hand, is a paid bullshit statistician for NATSAP.  I am pretty sure I know exactly who he is, and it fits the profile exactly for NATSAP's statistics gathering Jan mentioned in her testimony.  I might be wrong, but then again, his actions clearly demonstrate a motive that is, as far as i can see, only consistent with that of an industry member.  I might not be spot on about you being NATSAP's paid, full-time, Fornits bullshit department announced at the hearing, but there is no doubt in my mind of your allegiances, especially with your revelations concerning

@Who: Is this true, Who.  Do you work on a consulting basis for NATSAP's marketing or "research" division?  You defend NATSAP past the point of est-ian "logic" and absurdity where up is down and black is white (perfect for industry marketing).  You pull figures out of your ass, etc... mock survivors, piss of parents, attempt to disrupt the forum (especially certain specific subjects of threads.

God damn, i wish you would have said some of your shit around some of those parents today, they would probably have laid you the fuck out (I would have, if in their situation, with you helping to whitewash the reputation of murderers and abusers (of both children and "young adults" in transitional schools).  NATSAP was crucified on national fucking television and don't think I won't be editing a "choice cuts" edit with just Bacon's testimony...  Maybe do a few side-by-side cuts with a few of Jan's contradictions, Freudian slips, and outright apparant perjury.

Seriously, I'll do what I have to do to fulfill my official fornits duties, but personally, I fucking despise you, especially after today.  Occasionally, i'll be polite if i'm not in a bad mood, but frankly, you deserve good, verbal slapping around.  Give you a taste of a program, you sadistic fuck.

You must have no soul whatsoever left to defend NATSAP after Jan denied any knowledge of the Bacon incident...  Keep sucking satan's cock[/quote]... Maybe he'll but you a new Mercedes Benz you can drive around until you realize that nobody in the whole world really gives a flying fuck about your existence on this planet.  Hopefully, at that point, you'll get drunk, place a .357 magnum in your mouth, and pull the trigger.  I heard monoxide is painless, btw, and slitting wrists is "down the road" not "across the street".  None of these are death threats, but merely suggestions on direct action you can take to help make the world a better place.

Oh you think that's harsh, do you?  It's really not that harsh at all.  Would you like it better if you were in the middle of the room, surrounded by people as vicious as me, itching to tear you apart verbally for cudos from the staff?  What if you couldn't leave?  But you don't have to worry about that... Sadly you seem to have no empathy whatsoever for those who did suffer, and don't give me your Jan Moss false sympathy bullshit.  You're on the other side, let's not pretend otherwise anymore.  You've made it clear that the only way to rid Fornits is

What if you were a kid, and what if you were already depressed, and what if you did kill yourself, and what if your parents were convinced it was inevitable, and what if your murder was forgotten, covered up, and the murderers continued to take risks with people's lives, sanity, wellbeing, and very identity by continuing to advertise treatment for a wide range of "issues" they are dangerously unequipped to deal with.

Do you care that the continued existance of this industry exists entirely without due process on the part of the kid.  Do you realize I was one of them, accepted into program for "issues" having to do with what I believe, who I am, and who I chose to associate with (all things the program sought out to reform through coercion and lies).  You can say our parents were at "wit's end", and perhaps they were from their perspectives, especially when exacerbated by program marketing emphasizing an "it's right for your kid" approach (or he's gonna fuckin die!), and not one that is actually beneficial to the Pizza (oops...  meant "student".)

Do you not care that these are human beings being denied their rights without fair trial, representation, or any unauthorized communication with the outside world, the cult itself, and finally within the self.  Do you not care that what you call therapy basically means coercing a person into doing something your way, breaking their will.  What about positive re-enforcement in which the detainee is tricked into following a carrot on a stick until the detainee becomes so incomparably cynical he or she will never trust anybody ever again (but perhaps a few survivors, maybe, since they were there and can relate)?  What about the God they tell you about that turns out to be a scarlet whore, feeding off the blood of innocents... finding out that everything you were taught was just to make a buck, everything was done ultimately for profit... losing your religion, faith in the program... feeling tricked, violated, forced to expose my inner most secrets to the group through psychological games, trickery, sleep and food deprivation, ritual humiliation. That isn't even to mention sick, rigged, mind games designed to build up a sense of camaraderie, loyalty to the group, and affection for the leader (facilitator).  Mind manipulation all to make a buck...  "students" all end up on the streets in this condition with nothing.  No money, no food, shelter, other clothing, personal property, transportation, etc...  nothing...  Out of the frying pan of surreality into a situation most people would have no idea how to react if it happened.

How did I felt when it happened to me?  They tell you that you are free to leave any time you wish, but you can't have your property, money, etc., back (and students are told they signed away their rights when they come into program, remember)  What happens when you're cold, tired, hungry, hot and thirsty or just plain scared?  Somewhere all that dogma shoving pays off and you suddenly start to think "maybe I can't make it on my own... Maybe I do need program to suceed"...  Then, as I've said, you find out your religion is a lie.  Do you know what it's like to lose your entire belief system, upon which you've built a brand, new identity (discarded the "masks" (which were actually you), and put on a brand new rubber mask of Ronald (hope the fucker is burning in hell right now) Reagan.

How do you think I felt when I recently found out that they knew that I was thrown on the streets all along and didn't raise a single objection, that they were totally duped by the program into believing that it's the "best thing" to do to help him to hit "rock bottom".  Benchmark made that purpose clear in their letters to my parents.

What of the few chosen ones, who actually graduate and give birth to a "success story"... Watch what happens the first time they try some of their program-acquired "tools" in the real world.  See how long their faith in program lasts, until they figure it out, feel like idiots, and subsequently shoot themselves in the head.

Mind rape: provides temporary results with attached timer and detonater... But that's not important to the efficient production of bullshit statistics and PR fueling "success stories" comprised mostly, i'm guessing of obligatory-on-graduation letters of thanks to the program. What of long term sucess rate? "Oh horrors... little Johnny is smoking pot again" (like they told him he would every single fucking day.  Time to send Johnny back to program to get more "help" against his will!

NATSAP defends Benchmark.  You heard for yourself what some of their other programs were like... And yet you think an organization comprised almost exclusively by program owners is going to give a good god damn about it's own crimes.  You can't be that stupid.  Fuck you, who.
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline TheWho

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 10:27:06 AM »
Quote from: ""Psy""
Is this true, Who. Do you work on a consulting basis for NATSAP's marketing or "research" division?

No, I have told you I don’t profit from the industry and I don’t work for these people.  I understand that you need someone to slam around for awhile and if that is me that is fine, I can take it.  I watched the hearing myself and thought is was powerful and I know what it is like to be in the room with all the energy as you were, takes your breath away doesn’t it?

What you really despise about me is that I don’t embrace the “all or nothing rule
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Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 10:36:53 AM »
TheWho is an industry shill. Why do you still talk to or about him?
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Offline Anonymous

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What if it were a choice?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 10:38:05 AM »
funny how thewho didnt even post on this topic untill psy went off on him.

youre a smart one psy. dont think every guest is thewho. just because a annon survivor is moderate doesnt mean he's thewho.
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