Author Topic: More to the investigated for the victim list  (Read 2207 times)

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Offline Oscar

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More to the investigated for the victim list
« on: January 07, 2010, 02:01:01 PM »
Unfortunately more possible victim have gone to the next world. We are digging for more information.

It is:

Melissa Rose Avrin - 19 (Discovery Academy)
Andrew Clark Corbett - 21   (Discovery Academy)
Erin Harkness - ? (Discovery Ranch)
Brady Scott Boot - 21  (SUWS and Valley View School)
Samuel Namy Lawton -23 (Academy at Swift River)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 04:08:02 PM »
Oscar, I did a quick search and none of these deaths were attributed to any school that they attended:

SAMUEL NAMY LAWTON HANCOCK  Died in his sleep
Brady Scott Booth -  Diving accident
Andrew Clark CorbettAccident
Melissa Rose Avrin result of an eating disorder.

After reading the obits how could you possibly tie any of these back to a program?  You would really discredit yourself and the list you are maintaining by including kids who die in their sleep, diving accidents etc. to artificially pump up numbers of deaths that are attributed to programs.
 
This desperation points to how safe programs really are when there becomes a need to just add names of any graduate who dies for the sake of keeping fresh names on the list.

I bet if we collected the names of kids who ate at a McDonalds in the 12 months prior to their death we could build a stronger case for McDonalds as the root cause.  I understand there is a deep seated hatred of programs here on fornits but you need to stick with the facts a little more or no one is ever going to believe the numbers.

Why not just print the truth on your Wiki page?
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Offline Oscar

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 05:31:47 PM »
Melissa Avrin died from the very illness she went to the program for. We have to ask whether she got the individual treatment she needed for her problem or she got the "one treatment fits all" approach.

Sometime accidents is a cover for a suicide, but as you can see from the case the link points to, we have ruled some deaths as accidents unrelated to the imprisonment they suffered during their teenage years.

Also people of young age who dies during sleep must raise a eyebrow. A growing number of people die premature because they are prescribed too much medication. I believe that the two most recent cases with no known relationship to the industry is the Johnson heir and an actress from "Clueless". It is possible that doctor at home and a doctor at a program can create a deadly cocktail of drug by mistake because they don't communicate in person.

If we didn't have the victim list how can we ever learn from these deaths? We are an unknown number of volunteers in Spft active on a lot of message boards beside Fornits. I cannot count the number of times where we have helped survivors to overcome the effects of involuntary treatment. Take this link: What kind of advice would you give Beth. She sounds awful close to throw in the tovel on life?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 06:08:57 PM »
Quote from: "Oscar"
Melissa Avrin died from the very illness she went to the program for. We have to ask whether she got the individual treatment she needed for her problem or she got the "one treatment fits all" approach.

A Valid point, but since she had this condition before she went to the program how could they be held responsible for the cause of her death?

Quote
Sometime accidents is a cover for a suicide, but as you can see from the case the link points to, we have ruled some deaths as accidents unrelated to the imprisonment they suffered during their teenage years.

Also people of young age who dies during sleep must raise a eyebrow. A growing number of people die premature because they are prescribed too much medication. I believe that the two most recent cases with no known relationship to the industry is the Johnson heir and an actress from "Clueless". It is possible that doctor at home and a doctor at a program can create a deadly cocktail of drug by mistake because they don't communicate in person.

Agreed but this needs to be proven before you can point the finger.

Quote
If we didn't have the victim list how can we ever learn from these deaths?

Unless we can determine the root cause none of us can begin to learn from the deaths.  Unless a person leaves a suicide note we can never be sure if it was due to a romance that went bad or due to a medical condition etc…. if we make assumptions then we never learn anything.

Quote
We are an unknown number of volunteers in Spft active on a lot of message boards beside Fornits. I cannot count the number of times where we have helped survivors to overcome the effects of involuntary treatment. Take this link: What kind of advice would you give Beth. She sounds awful close to throw in the tovel on life?


Beth said: “I went to cascade school and it never helped me.”

So if Beth committed suicide tomorrow would you conclude it was due to Cascade?  We couldn’t because by her own words Cascade didn’t cause her to be this way or feel the way she does.  She claims it did not help her.

If I were a smoker and went to a hypnotherapist to help me quit and it didn’t work and then years later I died of lung cancer could we conclude that the hypnotist caused my death?  Would we turn a blind eye to the fact that I was a smoker or had a generic predisposition to lung cancer?  Maybe the hypnotherapist was a jerk and a fake and I hated him… and therefore I hate all hypnotherapists and people should be warned before they go to one and spend their money.  This could be a valid argument.  But trying to make a case that the therapist caused the cancer just would never hold water and I think that is what you are trying to make people believe.



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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 07:11:29 PM »
Add them to the list even if it just pisses off the Whooter.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 08:09:52 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Add them to the list even if it just pisses off the Whooter.

LOL, even thats okay!!  as long as you place a foot note indicating why it is there i.e. (* listed to piss off Whooter).  This way when people go thru the list they can decifer which death is attributed to a program, which is not and which is placed there just to piss people off.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 08:22:22 PM »
You know.. Why don't you simply just disprove that these people shouldn't be put on this list? Keep in mind you'll have to do so with in the bounds of their standards. Can you give up that sort of control?
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Offline Ursus

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 08:26:49 PM »
Quote
This page contains a list of names of children lost during program (LDP) or at some point shortly after the program.
What exactly is it about the above descriptive which offends you so, Whooter? Seems to me, that it's pretty cut and dry.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 10:17:29 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote
This page contains a list of names of children lost during program (LDP) or at some point shortly after the program.
What exactly is it about the above descriptive which offends you so, Whooter? Seems to me, that it's pretty cut and dry.


When I see a person who died quietly in their sleep placed on a victims list (or being considered to be placed) along with someone who was restrained and suffocated at the hands of staff I see a list with no conditions or order and ultimately serves no purpose nor has no value.  I read all the information available on these 4 people and could not find any foul play which was tied to their death or how their deaths could place them into the category of victim.

Definitions on fornits can run unharnessed without bounds and take on new meanings outside the parameters of accepted social meaning(which I think we have all seen from time to time).   It is up to the readers to speak out and keep the information honest otherwise you are no better than the programs you are fighting against.

Just asking to keep it honest.  Someone should say “Hey Oscar that guy died quietly in his sleep, he doesn’t belong on the list”, maybe no one wants to speak up because they may be labeled “Pro program”.  So it is left to me to say something.  Sorry that I come across as harsh, but I just wanted to make the point so that you don’t add any more people who don’t belong there.



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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 10:36:41 PM »
I personally don't get into the whole thing about lists and so forth myself, but again if you can disprove they belong on the list according to their standards you should try. Just stop weeping like a little girl about being labeled proprogram, because we all know you are proprogram.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 11:28:25 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
I personally don't get into the whole thing about lists and so forth myself, but again if you can disprove they belong on the list according to their standards you should try. Just stop weeping like a little girl about being labeled proprogram, because we all know you are proprogram.


LOL, you miss read the post.  … I said: “maybe no one wants to speak up because they may be labeled “Pro program”……  As you can see I don’t have a problem speaking up.  You can call me anything you like.

As far as lists go I think they can be valuable as long as the conditions are well defined so that we all know what the list represents.  Unless they follow some sort of order they are useless.  I think we can all agree here on this.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 11:51:24 PM »
Quote
This page contains a list of names of children lost during program (LDP) or at some point shortly after the program.

That seems to be the conditions, seems alright to me.
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Offline ZenAgent

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 05:15:09 AM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Quote
This page contains a list of names of children lost during program (LDP) or at some point shortly after the program.

That seems to be the conditions, seems alright to me.


"Without the program, your child will end up dead or in jail" (or some slight variation) is the sick pitch used to set the hook in exploited parents.  It's a horrible guilt trip to lay on a parent, especially considering the programs can't produce one unbiased, legitimate report showing long term gains.

Che's right about the conditions for inclusion on the list of children lost due to programs, during and after.  A child lost during the program (LDP) speaks for itself.  Parents shell out money to programs which promise a safer, more secure environment than public education.  A public school would not allow a child in acute abdominal distress to suffer for days while calling the kid a "faker" before placing a too-late call for medical aid.  

"At some point shortly after the program" doesn't take into account the trauma of involuntary institutionalization and unlicensed, unqualified staff practicing mental/medical health treatment.  It doesn't take into account how the mind deals with horrific mental and physical abuse.  Programs would fold if required to hire competent, licensed and ethical clinicians and staff.  Josef Mengele would be program director at some Utah RTC if he were alive today.  Unlike the clinical staff working in most teen programs, Mengele's educational background and credentials were at least legitimate.

It can take years before a program survivor starts processing their RTC experience.  After all, responsible guardians and mental health professionals were involved, they couldn't be as sadistic as they seemed.  A program survivor described a "three year simmer" period she had witnessed in kids freed from programs.  The first year or more is spent re-assembling a shattered life.  The second year is spent blocking memories.  When the third year comes, memories aren't easily blocked or ignored and the survivor realizes the extent of the abuse.  Some become enraged and fight against it and some will kill themselves.   Program related deaths occur years after discharge from the RTC.  If a "later" program death is caused by the condition/complaint treated by an RTC, the program may not be legally liable but their treatment was an obvious failure.  The programs like to limit treatment related fatalities to "shortly after the program" - they do the damage and know how long it takes to set in.
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\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

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Offline Whooter

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 09:26:51 AM »
Quote from: "ZenAgent"
A public school would not allow a child in acute abdominal distress to suffer for days while calling the kid a "faker" before placing a too-late call for medical aid.

Well, actually it happens in both the private and the public sector.  There are many examples where children have died under the supervision of public school employees.  Children in public schools are dragged or coerced off of school property and raped by their teachers.  If they are not raped then they suffer horribly due to mental and physical abuse from their teacher and peers resulting in 1,500 suicide deaths a year.  But the question is do we shut the public school system down?  Do we try to attribute each suicide death to a failed school system? A failed or unqualified teacher or licensed psychologist?

I agree with Zen that mental and physical abuse occurs regardless of educational backgrounds as in his example of Dr. Mengele.  Insisting on medical degrees at every level will not insure the children are safe.  The level of education or training does not define a person’s character.  Kids are subjected to horrible abuse at the hands of local pediatricians and hospital staff throughout the world.  One of the keys to reducing this, in my opinion, is to find and hire good caring people, preferably those who are in the process of pursuing a career in a profession helping children themselves, to also serve as role models and help these kids along.  A group environment helps also so that kids have each other to depend on and learn from.
 

Quote
It can take years before a program survivor starts processing their RTC experience. After all, responsible guardians and mental health professionals were involved, they couldn't be as sadistic as they seemed. A program survivor described a "three year simmer"…...

Another key to success is to have a strong transition period from the safety of the program to the real world.  If a child is just dumped into the environment they can have a difficult time adjusting.  But as we know from any type of treatment that success is never 100% and some cannot be helped.  Children who leave these programs are typically more mature and better equipped to handle what life throws at them and continue happy and successful lives.  From what I have seen statistically the suicide rate, post program, is extremely low compared to those children who never received help.  It would be interesting to see study results in this area.

So I guess the question is out of the 1,000s of kids who commit suicide each year (in the US)and the many more thousands of kids who die shortly after high school.  What or who do we attribute their deaths to?  The high school? A failed family unit?  A relationship which has gone bad?  A medical condition which was overlooked?

I think if we knew the answers to these questions we could start to help these kids and reduce the number of deaths but unfortunately the rate seems to remain constant.  What we do know is that most Therapeutic Programs are able to address these issues in a safe environment and set most of these kids back on the right path and allow them to live a long and happy life.



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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: More to the investigated for the victim list
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 11:05:18 AM »
"Zen hasn't posted in a while. Maybe if I spam enough bullshit I can drive him back off."
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...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...