Another apology

[Anonymous]

That Alex chap basically said everyone was stupid, the Brian chap called everyone a cult member, now this chap is just saying parents are stupid lazy people, or it's the kids' fault.  WTF? Why can't they just post to one another on that Caferty site?

[Rachael]

I cannot believe you are all this deluded. Programs do not work. No amount of regulation will make them work.

There are two types of kids who end up in programs, those who need help and those who don't. Those who don't, we've already discussed. Those who do need help, do not need programs. They need parents who want to help them. They need comprehensive community-based support possibly including therapists, doctors and just sane healthy people to act as role models.

No one needs programs.

[nimdA]

Rachel just nailed it. Can't top that and I won't try.

[Anonymous]

So you are ok with the NYRA linking to CAICA?

Personally, no I'm not.  Just as I stated before when antiwwasp was linking to a referral service.  But, just as was said at that time, I still think that in most cases a disclaimer is an option as well.....even if it turns out to need a more severe action.


Now, this isn't entirely relevant, but bear with me.  When I left FFS I went to Vassar, where we created a group called PSI (Program for Substance Information), (which is now called The Source for those who want to check it out i think it's still on Vassar's organizations).  The mission of this group was to give BOTH sides of the story on drug use.  On the one hand, we gave the true effects of drugs that were fun, useful, or whatever positive you want to put for it.....as well as the side effects and legal issues that arise.  On the other side, we also had counsellors for addiction, numbers for AA/NA, I or another usually manned the office to answer calls or dorm visits for bad trips and all to talk kids down, provided water and fruit at parties to make sure dehydration wasn't an issue....etc.   In the first year I was there, the number of hospital admissions was 10% of what it was each of the 3 years before.  Now, from being on campus and doing my share of illicit behaviors, I know this was not from many people staying away from drugs......and I also know quite a few people went into AA/NA realizing they had enough.  While the program was started on a Federal Grant our members consisted of both hardcore drug users and dealers, as well as people in recovery and straight edge kids.  People trusted us because we gave them ALL the information.


While I personally disagree with CAFETY being involved with  NYRA if ties to CAICA are not dropped, I also know Kat, and Brian also, as well as any of those I've spoken to, are not saying that any of the programs we've seen are "middle road".  Yet, the fact that, at the very least, exists a need for some sort of external solution (even if it has yet to come along properly).  

To be taken seriously while, for many of us, still finding a way to have a job (i.e. not getting arrested for breaking kids out of schools) we may have to walk a path that is not extreme enough for some, and also may be too harsh on programs for others. If people have issues, I know I, nor the others at cafety have an issue communicating with any of these.....but at some point, there will be differences of opinion, a boycott and bashing of cafety is pointless.  It's not too hard for a link to be removed, or for people to be taken off the board in whatever case is necessary.  Yet, at the same time, taking away people for mere involvement with some of the works of someone who gets money from someone who takes money from said program....eventually becomes a train that serves no purpose.  If there is TRULY a conflict of interest, I'm sure it will be taken care of.....as for others, I'm sure it will be discussed.  I've got work in the morning, so I'm out..... email [email protected] if you have any specific questions, comments, or whatnot.  Again, any response is personal....I'm not speaking on behalf of cafety.....I just see no reason to boycott an organization that has still generated much support and worked for change in the same direction as everyone else here.....even if the final destination may not be as far.

[Mummie]

Same here.  We got brochures showing us happy children, in a loving and fun environment, going to school, and getting therapy, all in the name of helping our child, because according to them, we obviously were not doing the right thing, where they were qualified and had a 98% satisfaction rate, and a long list of families willing to tell us how great the programs were, and yes, they were court approved, and had dealt with our situation before.

We didn't have a choice in placing our son, we were ordered to, or else, and keep him there, or else.  I, for one, was not a non-participating parent.  Nor did I self-impose any punishment on my child, as some people have tried to portray me as doing.  I am a loving mother, who had to send her child away and keep him away.  And these programs prey on people like me, and others in the same situation.

I lost my husband three years ago to drugs and alcohol, they promised this wouldn't happen to my son if he went to "their" program, I was doing the right thing by saving my childs life.  Well there are no guarantees are there?  

What I don't get is why courts approve this crap knowing full well, and without disclosing it to the parents, that they can also be deadly and dangerous.

When you are ordered by the court, the schools have you by the balls.  If you don't comply, they threaten you with "we will kick your kid out and you're back to court, and your kids probably in juvi until he's 18 or 21, depending on the crime."  Nice scare tactics for desperate parents.

You can call me a bad mom too, but I know, and so does everyone else who knows us, that I was, and still am a good mom.  There isn't anything I wouldn't do for my son.   Even thought about letting him leave the country and go home to family when this all took place, but I know what would have happened had I have done that.  

And I would like to ask whoever it is that keeps attacking me to please stop.  I have done nothing to you, you don't know my son, and therefore I don't think you have any right to make accusations about me, or comments about him.  Thank you in advance.

[nimdA]

Personally, no I'm not. Just as I stated before when antiwwasp was linking to a referral service. But, just as was said at that time, I still think that in most cases a disclaimer is an option as well.....even if it turns out to need a more severe action.

The only thing of interest at the moment is the link the NYRA has with CAICA.

You also might want to take some objection to two of your board members coming to a public forum and being highly insulting to survivors, parents, and others.

What is the tendency you all seem to have with making this problem bigger than it is?

The only thing I'm concerned with, and not really even that concerned, is the link the NYRA has with CAICA.

The only thing I've taken away is my absolute convicition that I've made the best decisio ever in not becoming a CAFETY member. Seems to me the entire damn board of directors needs a good hose out and Kat needs to get back to the basics with her own organization.

till then its a heap of useless monkey shit.

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to bother arguing....the part where I said programs were CON ARTISTS.....would clearly have fallen under such a category.  I didn't blame your daughter either, or anyone elses kid....so apologies if you took it that way.  When I say most....I'm speaking of personal experience at the place I was at, with the kids I was there with....most of whom I still speak to and still say they understand why they were sent, although want to burn the place to the ground.  



But, like I said...apologies if you misinterpreted what I said.  While I believe any parent would be outraged at such treatment as your daughter received, my main point  is that in the eyes of a parent that wants nothing but to HELP their child for whatever their child needs help with (heavy drug use, legal issues, suicide, etc) and can't find a solution.....there will ALWAYS exist a motivation for find a place to help.....meaning reform of a totally fucked industry is a lot more likely than it's destruction.



As far as your question about courts, many are just as conned as parents.  I know my local judge sent at least 6 kids in one year to mine.   Since we got out, he's been removed and the new judge does not refer or sentence if you will, to such places.


Like I said though, while each case of parent, and each case of child, as well as each program, may be individually exclusive and a blanket stereotype is wrong, try to see through the perspective of a parent that has no solution, such as your own where you're forced to send your kid away....or he goes to jail.....if you had the knowledge of what your choices are....you'd make your own decision.  

The question I've been asked the most and still have yet to find an actual answer that will suffice is "what do I do when I've tried everything?"  there are still parents and kids that fall into this category...not everyone is going to just correct themselves when necessary.

Anyway....for those who feel I attacked them, I apologize if my words were misconstrued.  I've been working 20 hours straight and have to work again at 9.  Therefore, if my lengthy responses seemed to lose focus and trail into what may have been taken as insult, I'm sorry.  Yet, I hope that              the points were not lost simply because insult may have been taken when not intended.  Again....my email is posted if you wish to comment me directly, or whatnot.....I'm off

[Rachael]

You're ignoring me. Kindly do take a moment to look over what I posted.

[nimdA]

Wooo.. 3 for 3 so far..

Not looking very good for Cafety. I hope the next one is a does better.

[Mummie]

The question I've been asked the most and still have yet to find an actual answer that will suffice is "what do I do when I've tried everything?" there are still parents and kids that fall into this category...not everyone is going to just correct themselves when necessary.

There is also a combo group here too, the court ordered parent who also  tried everything prior to it getting that far, and the gilt that goes with both run deep.  You can't lump each parent or child into a one-size-fits-all category, and that seems to be the biggest problem here.

[Anonymous]

You're ignoring me. Kindly do take a moment to look over what I posted.

Nope, not ignoring, just responding to the other post.

Like I've said before....I personally would never send my kid to a program...I personally wish they would all catch fire and burn to the ground.  While I would hope that parents that love them and want to help, community based care, and everything else would honestly work in every case, the reality is there are still those that unfortunately, all those things won't happen.  Now, I still think all these places, as far as I've seen thus far, are worthless shitholes.......but I'm talking about the method to actual change in public opinion and political change.....it's going to take steps or violent revolutions.   One way keeps us all out of jail.  

And as for those who think I'm simply calling them lazy, or bad parents, or blaming their kids, or whatnot....I did none of the above. If it was taken as such, apologies, but I know what I wrote was not directed at any parent actually trying to help their kids....when i said "lazy parents" I'm talking about the parents that literally got sick of parenting....not people that genuinely care.....I thought that would be obvious.  When I said kids that did something to get there.....I was talking about the experience I saw of about 60% at my program having at least substantial reason to be sent by their parents.(even in their own words 10 years later) even though they still have nightmares..NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME.  That's the point I've made already.  I know each fall into their own situation.....but EVERYONE needs to look at ALL situations to fix anything.





As for anything else....I don't know how many times it must be said.....my views DO NOT REPRESENT CAFETY.   I'm not even on the damn board.  If you have an issue....address it with me.  As far as the issues with them, they may boot members off the board, but seriously, at some stage a difference of opinion needs to just be left alone unless it's a serious problem.....just because one person may think change is better than destruction does not mean people are not fighting on the same side.....at least they get you half way there.....and then you can move further.  I'm done arguing a point that need not be argued.  This is seriously just continuing on needlessly, and too much is being misinterpreted.

[Anonymous]

The question I've been asked the most and still have yet to find an actual answer that will suffice is "what do I do when I've tried everything?" there are still parents and kids that fall into this category...not everyone is going to just correct themselves when necessary.

There is also a combo group here too, the court ordered parent who also  tried everything prior to it getting that far, and the gilt that goes with both run deep.  You can't lump each parent or child into a one-size-fits-all category, and that seems to be the biggest problem here.

I'm not forgetting that group at all...in fact that's exactly the problem.  Parents faced with a decision of jail or court ordered program will often choose no jail or criminal record for their kid (if it will stay if they're a minor).....and as much as it may be only a step....regulation is much closer than closure at this point......make it safer for now and then go for abolishment of the entire industry.....or keep fighting trying take em all out....which will likely take longer.....that's why I choose to take a middle ground for now......even if it means people disagree.

[Joyce Harris]

Djjon5ny,
YES your views do represent CAFETY's because you continue to say "they think this" and "they believe that" bla bla bla......and Kat thinks, believes so-and-so.

IF you don't want to continue apologizing for INSULTING parents, like me, and MUMMIE and any other parents who may be reading your posts--then try thinking before your click "enter."
Your words are insulting and demeaning.

I provided you with documents to read; so you can inform yourself of the ONE ISSUE being discussed here:  Cafety linking to NYRA.
The problem being that NYRA links to and supports Isabelle Zehnder/CAICA.  Isabelle Zehnder admits she refers children to programs and to Sue Scheff /PURE.

What is it about something that simple that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND?

Please do not quote ME anymore of your middle ground crap, young man; because I do not tolerate being talked down to; or being insulted.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Instead of going back and forth about what advocates should and shouldn't be doing, why not just ruin programmies' lives instead and see who gets shut down?

Such as going around their neighborhoods with a stack of leaflets containing their face and the word "PEDOPHILE" and a roll of Scotch tape, and informing everyone within a five (ten? twenty? sky's the limit here) block radius of what they are. Or informing their relatives, co-workers (for the parents), and other associates of what they are. This goes great when the program parent in question is someone else's boss or a major manager. Now the underlings know what she did with her own kid, how do you think they're going to think about her authority now? :lol:

Gas stations are great for this. Gas attendants are usually kids themselves or close to it. Give them a picture of a programmie's face and a couple-page leaflet of the tortures he inflicts and see where he fuels up next.

It's all about creativity.

[Anonymous]

Wow, you're actually comparing program parents to pedophiles?  Just when you thought someone couldn't get any lower, and here comes this post.  

What's embarassing is you have to leave work every other day to pick your kid up from the back seat of a police car, or from being suspended every other week, and then losing your job because you can't seem to stay there long enough in the work week to be productive, and when you are there, you are so unproductive because you're sitting there worring about the pile of shit your kid is in, and how you're going to get him out of it.   The last thing you are worried about are your co-workers and what they think.

I think that post takes the award for the most asslike comment ever to be posted on Fornits.