straight incorporated 81-84

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-03-01 12:50:00, Froderik13 wrote:

"Ok, that's cool if you've moved on, but why try to speak for everybody? I get that feeling.."

Sorry if I gave you that feeling, Froderik.  I'm not trying to speak for everybody.  What I am trying to do is explain to Anon, and to some others that spew anger and hatred on this and other threads here, that maybe they wouldn't be so damn angry if they let some of their anger go...  Particularly anger they hold towards other "clients" who were subject to the same cultish mind-control tactics that they were, but perhaps chose to deal with differently.

We all know how Straight was.  You could sit in your shit, not follow their rules, and be stuck on 1st phase where you're most likely to be abused...  Or go along with the progam to some degree, maybe having to yell at other kids, maybe having to physically hurt other kids, so you could progress through the phases and get the hell out of there.  Most people I know experienced both sides, myself included.

If you read these forums thoroughly -- and also testimonials and articles elsewhere -- you'll find that there are people who doled out abuse in Straight who truly regret what they did.  I've had enough fists in my back and spit in my eye to feel terribly about putting my fist in other people's backs and spitting on one poor girl.  I did not feel good about doing these things when I did them, but I felt that I had to at the time.

What I am trying to say is that people change, especially young people as they get older and mature.  I don't see the sense in harboring anger against John Doe, because he was an asshole to you 20 years ago, when [A] you were both living under extenuating circumstances at the time and you haven't seen him in 20 years and perhaps he now has remorse, or is even worse off than you because he feels so bad about all that happened.

I am also trying to stick up for Sara because I know her; I know that she is not the names people are calling her on this forum.

I guess I am not doing a good job of explaining.  Oh well.  Either that, or people must want to be angry.  Maybe they've been so angry for so long that they wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they weren't.  *sigh*

~ M

[kpickle39]

I undestand what you are trying to say Cleopatra2U and I agree.

[Cayo Hueso]

I agree that we were all subjected to the same abuse and I know I did things that hurt other people.  All of us could stand to lose a little of the anger we have.  I'm just saying give the guy a little time, it may happen.  

Here's freedom to him who would read;
 
Here's freedom to him who would write;

None ever feared that the truth should be heard,

But them that the truth would indict.


--author unknown (circa 1914)

[Froderik]

Cleo, like Cayo said, it takes a while to get to that point, it did for me too. I was psycho for a while there when I first found this stuff. And beware the perils of speculation:

Either that, or people must want to be angry. Maybe they've been so angry for so long that they wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they weren't. *sigh*

[Cayo Hueso]

and I agree also that Sara isn't what she's being called here...at all.

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine

[RTP2003]

I'll give you that other phasers don't deserve my anger--but I think a staff member is a different story. They did not have to participate in an abusive situation in order to graduate and get out, they chose to participate in an abusive situation in order to satisfy their fucked up needs for power.  They are as guilty as Miller and Mel, although  not to the same degree, they still participated in the shit that went on there on a daily basis.  They are like the gaurds at Auschwitz--guilty not for masterminding the crimes, but for their voluntary participation.

[Froderik]

I say it all depends..to be concise.

[RTP2003]

Depends on what?  They "made a decision" to be on staff--they are guilty.

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-03-01 13:02:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"Cleo, your advice sounds a little too close to 'forgive and forget' for my tastes.
I say hang 'em high. If not for ourselves, then to keep them from doing it again."

If you're gonna be angry, focusing your anger on a purpose, such as keeping people from doing it again, is a good thing.  Take Richard Bradbury for example.  In directing his anger through the media and into the courts (instead of spewing bile on message boards), he's got a very real chance of finally bringing down the REAL villains here -- the people who created an environment where kids became intolerably cruel to other kids.  (If Richard spent as much time writing graphic novels involving the Newtons' and Semblers' anatomy, and cursing at people on message boards, he wouldn't have time to go to court.)

Me, I don't have the history or the desire to go on a crusade, although I wholeheartedly respect those like Richard who do.

Me, I don't like to be angry, so when I feel it, I think to myself, "There's nothing I can do about this," and I let it go.  It does come back, but with less and less force each time.  This isn't forgiveness.  This isn't forgetting.  It's realizing that being angry about things that happened years ago isn't gonna do me a damn thing except keep me angry.  And I don't like to be angry.  But that's just me.  You do as you please, but please don't call good people like Sara silly names.

~ M

[RTP2003]

Richard Bradbury is a hero.


If you look back on the posts, Sara did her share of mudslinging and name-calling.  I think Idreamofnewtonsburning (great username,btw)was pissed, and rightfully so, at the suggestionthat the staff members were "only human" and "doing what they were told".  Read the fucking thread before you start deciding who started what.

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-03-01 13:25:00, cayohueso wrote:

"I agree that we were all subjected to the same abuse and I know I did things that hurt other people.  All of us could stand to lose a little of the anger we have.  I'm just saying give the guy a little time, it may happen."

On 2004-03-01 13:26:00, Froderik13 wrote:

"Cleo, like Cayo said, it takes a while to get to that point, it did for me too."

Point made, Cayo and Frod.  I hope the Anon I was originally replying to, and the others on this thread I have expanded to include, eventually start to let go of their anger.

~ M

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-03-01 14:00:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"If you look back on the posts, Sara did her share of mudslinging and name-calling.  I think Idreamofnewtonsburning (great username,btw)was pissed, and rightfully so, at the suggestionthat the staff members were "only human" and "doing what they were told".  Read the fucking thread before you start deciding who started what."

This is the first thing Sara posted to this thread:

On 2004-02-12 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"rember the people you wish this on are human to and did what they were told to do as a sister of one on your list i am sorry if you will acept it it should not have happen"

She was sticking up for her brother.  I gather from reading the posts that her brother could be a jerk.  But can you blame Sara for sticking up for him?  I don't.  And I don't see where she deserved to be attacked for doing so.

~ M

[RTP2003]

I think she overSTEPped her bounds by sticking up for Todd, even if he is her brother, but that is not my main point.  I think it would be wrong to forgive ANY of the staff from Straight for their participation in what many have called the "worst human rights violation in this country's history, (after slavery and the Native American genocide)".  If you are "over it", well, more power to you.  I would say that the fact that you know of this board and frequently post on it shows you are NOT as over it as you say.  This is understandable-- it is very uncomfortable coming to grips with the shit we as survivors went through.  Maybe you have just repressed your anger, I do not know.  But don't belittle or minimize my experience at Straight by suggesting or impying that my anger is some sort of "character flaw" on my part.  I think it's a healthy, natural reaction to the shit I was forced to endure.

[Cleopatra2U]

On 2004-03-01 14:24:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"I think it would be wrong to forgive ANY of the staff from Straight for their participation in what many have called the 'worst human rights violation in this country's history, (after slavery and the Native American genocide)'."

RTP, you have every right to your opinion.  I actually tend to agree, EXCEPT in the case of CHILDREN who were COERCED onto staff after months to years of brainwashing.  I think they should be cut some slack.  This is just my opinion.

"If you are 'over it', well, more power to you.  I would say that the fact that you know of this board and frequently post on it shows you are NOT as over it as you say."

Not over it.  Dealing with it.  I'm primarily here because I want to reacquaint with people I actually spent time with in Straight.  I also have a very bad memory; reading and posting things here help me remember things about my 15 months in Straight that I thought were long forgotten.  It's good to know where you come from, and to understand what you've been through.

"But don't belittle or minimize my experience at Straight by suggesting or impying that my anger is some sort of 'character flaw' on my part.  I think it's a healthy, natural reaction to the shit I was forced to endure."

It wasn't my intention to "belittle or minimize" yours or anyone else's experience.  I personally don't like to be angry -- when I am angry, really angry, my whole body gets tense; my stomach feels knotted; my face feels hot and flushed; and my fists clench and unclench uncontrollably.  I don't like to feel this way, and it is difficult for me to understand why anyone would want to.  I'm not saying anger is a "flaw" (it's a feeling) or that it is wrong (like you said, it's a natural reaction)...  Just undesirable.

~ Mindi

[Froderik]

Depends on what? They "made a decision" to be on staff--they are guilty.

Actually that "depends" could work either way.
Think about it..

I used to feel like that about staff. I also felt that way about certain phasers as well. I don't anymore...

And it depends on their attitude now.