General Interest > Feed Your Head
"What the Bleep?" and "The Secret"
psy:
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "Froderik" ---So essentially what sort of bullshit does it attempt to convey?
--- End quote ---
Human potential, same as LifeSpring / Est / Resource Realizations / Premier Seminars / LifeSteps / Propheets... Basically the idea that everything that's happened to you in your life is your fault (not just your actions which is reasonable, but also what is done to you). Of course that means that if you can become "enlightened" into the viewpoint of the group you can do anything or go anywhere in life with sheer willpower. The "Secret" teaches that if you're fat, all you have to do to become thin is to hang around exclusively with thin people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)
--- End quote ---
OK so now this has to be the 18th explanation you have given on how you do life. When your talking about AA, it is pull yourself together, you are stronger then alcohol, God is not going to help you.t.
--- End quote ---
You're missing my point. People are 100% responsible for their own actions (drinking is an action). People are not 100% responsible for what other people do to them. That's the difference. People who claim that they are in charge of everything in their lives are as absurd as the AA folk who claim they are in charge of nothing (or at the very least their own actions in relation to alcohol). Other than the point you just brought up, AA has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. While 12 step and human potential philosophies are often taught in conjunction in programs, they completely contradict rather than complement each other. Getting people to accept two sets of contradictory dogma is one method cults and programs use to stop critical thinking.
SUCK IT:
--- Quote from: "psy" --- People are 100% responsible for their own actions (drinking is an action).
--- End quote ---
Science and all the professionals involved in the drug treatment industry would care to disagree. We get it, you don't believe in addiction, but it's a fact and has been studied for a long time. Why do you think people continue to smoke cigarettes even though they know it's horrible for their health? Denial, denial, denial, it's not just a river in Egypt.
DannyB II:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "DannyB II" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "Froderik" ---So essentially what sort of bullshit does it attempt to convey?
--- End quote ---
Human potential, same as LifeSpring / Est / Resource Realizations / Premier Seminars / LifeSteps / Propheets... Basically the idea that everything that's happened to you in your life is your fault (not just your actions which is reasonable, but also what is done to you). Of course that means that if you can become "enlightened" into the viewpoint of the group you can do anything or go anywhere in life with sheer willpower. The "Secret" teaches that if you're fat, all you have to do to become thin is to hang around exclusively with thin people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)
--- End quote ---
OK so now this has to be the 18th explanation you have given on how you do life. When your talking about AA, it is pull yourself together, you are stronger then alcohol, God is not going to help you.t.
--- End quote ---
You're missing my point. People are 100% responsible for their own actions (drinking is an action). People are not 100% responsible for what other people do to them. That's the difference. People who claim that they are in charge of everything in their lives are as absurd as the AA folk who claim they are in charge of nothing (or at the very least their own actions in relation to alcohol). Other than the point you just brought up, AA has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. While 12 step and human potential philosophies are often taught in conjunction in programs, they completely contradict rather than complement each other. Getting people to accept two sets of contradictory dogma is one method cults and programs use to stop critical thinking.
--- End quote ---
How are "Human Potential" and the "12 steps" a contradiction. Why would you even say such a thing. Why would a program want to teach both simultaneously, I don't think they would nullify each other but rather turn into to progression. I could see someone entering AA and sobering up and then get involved in workshops provided by HP.
The 12 steps are teachings try to help you rid yourself of the fears, that have been holding you back from being successful in all facets of life. Human Potential focuses more on empowerment, creativity, assertive action ect....
For the alcoholic who has been in the grips of drinking for years, Human Potential would be a bit much early on but as time went on, I could see this being offered.
Just my short take right now.
psy:
--- Quote from: "SUCK IT" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" --- People are 100% responsible for their own actions (drinking is an action).
--- End quote ---
Science and all the professionals involved in the drug treatment industry would care to disagree.
--- End quote ---
Depnding on how you would define "addiction", i believe in it. If you call it bad habit, yes. If you call it a disease, no. Science agrees with me. While some people may have a genetically greater desire (and even that's debatable) for certain substance that doesn't mean the desire (or any desire) overwhelms free will and takes away a person's responsibility for their actions. The drug treatment industry disagrees because AA has been successful in prosthetizing itself into the treatment and public consciousness as the "only way". Also, many in the treatment industry are former patients who now spend their time doing little more than proselytizing for a cult turned religion founded by an embezzling, philandering, drunk.
--- Quote --- Why do you think people continue to smoke cigarettes even though they know it's horrible for their health?
--- End quote ---
Because they desire the pleasure of a cigarette more than they desire good health. It's a choice. Sure it can be difficult to give up that pleasure (as habits can be) but there is no magical "disease" interfering with free choice. Lots of people quit every day on their own and nicotine as a bad habit is a lot more difficult to quit than many other substances. They quit on their own because common knowledge tells them it's posible. Thankfully nobody founded a fucking religion around it and tricked the populous at large into thinking they needed to wacky meetings and do bizarre step-based rituals for the rest of their lives.
DannyB II:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "SUCK IT" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" --- People are 100% responsible for their own actions (drinking is an action).
--- End quote ---
Science and all the professionals involved in the drug treatment industry would care to disagree.
--- End quote ---
Depnding on how you would define "addiction", i believe in it. If you call it bad habit, yes. If you call it a disease, no. Science agrees with me. While some people may have a genetically greater desire (and even that's debatable) for certain substance that doesn't mean the desire (or any desire) overwhelms free will and takes away a person's responsibility for their actions. The drug treatment industry disagrees because AA has been successful in prosthetizing itself into the treatment and public consciousness as the "only way". Also, many in the treatment industry are former patients who now spend their time doing little more than proselytizing for a cult turned religion founded by an embezzling, philandering, drunk.
OK are we talking about actions or addictions. I believe you can have a addiction and through proper action remove its core and render it mute.
Though Pys, you must admit the addiction, dependency, bad habit, self destructive behavior for the proper source of action, to happen.
This is what the 12 steps are teaching, period.
Psy, it is folks like yourself who give AA this "sinister power".
--- Quote --- Why do you think people continue to smoke cigarettes even though they know it's horrible for their health?
--- End quote ---
Because they desire the pleasure of a cigarette more than they desire good health. It's a choice. Sure it can be difficult to give up that pleasure (as habits can be) but there is no magical "disease" interfering with free choice. Lots of people quit every day on their own and nicotine as a bad habit is a lot more difficult to quit than many other substances. They quit on their own because common knowledge tells them it's posible. Thankfully nobody founded a fucking religion around it and tricked the populous at large into thinking they needed to wacky meetings and do bizarre step-based rituals for the rest of their lives.
--- End quote ---
OK, did we really need to insult Bill, com'on he is dead already.
That drunk revolutionized they way they deal with drunks. They used to give them Valium and let them drool it off, gave them shock treatments, lobotomizes and just straight jacket them for days. So hey, we have come a long ways.
Relax Pys, folks like yourself and I can bring the 2nd revelation to AA, " It's a choice", "There is no magical "disease" interfering with (Free Choice)".
I am more serious then you think. AA was supposed to be a place were you went to study/learn for one hour, then go back to your life. Many folks in AA have turned their local meeting into a hang out, a place for social activities. This is why we have all these negative connotations because a bunch of undisciplined folks who are used getting high, drinking, picking up dates and so forth, have a place to do this.
I seldom attend meeting at AA clubhouses, I would rather go to a church. Seems like folks are less inclined to act out there.
I like to see folks recover from a seemingly state of hopelessness and despair. That what I enjoy doing is giving back.
Folks are lazy that want to believe in the "disease theory". I don't. I am about action, always have been. The 12 steps gave me a design for living that nobody else was able to do. Yes I was ready at 28 years old, finally. In my case my parents could have never taught me what AA did, I don't rule out a mentor, a priest, adopted father, uncle ect...could not have taught me probably the same principles of life. Though I seriously doubt that any of those I mentioned above could have shared similar experiences that a drug addict/alcoholic endured. So I am grateful that AA I both lessons available for me.
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