Author Topic: Lone Star Expeditions  (Read 22795 times)

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Offline Covergaard

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Re: Can I jump in a second? I WAS THERE.
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2007, 03:03:46 AM »
Quote from: ""Anonymous LSE Staff""
Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem. We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.


If that is the truth, how come that the concept of bringing children involuntary treatment and in fact a kind of imprisonment without any face-to-face contact with the family for weeks, is recognized as abuse even as far as 6000 kilometers away?

How come that the reputation of LSE can be so bad that they are known for abuse outside the states?

Regardless of the type of crimes, drug-use or illness a child could have done or contracted, in my country we dont have a kind of placement that doesn't allow the child to have face-to-face contact with the child every 14 days.

We are talking of children, who have taken other peoples lives and even those children have more rights regarding having their version of the truth told or getting acces to meet their own family than children in the LSE program.

Thought-provoking, is it not?
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Offline Deborah

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Re: Can I jump in a second? I WAS THERE.
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2007, 08:47:55 AM »
Quote from: ""Anonymous LSE Staff""
You guys are breaking my heart.

What, you want us to cry a bucket for you? Any sympathy sh0uld be directed to Matthew's parents.

Quote
And I know every single one of the people that worked with Matt very well, in fact, I personally trained most of the people working there now. If you don't know me or my former coworkers, please don't judge us as sicko sadists who like to punish kids and make them suffer.

It will more likely be along the lines of sicko sadists who denied his needs (neglect), in this situation. He certainly suffered.

Quote
Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem.


Guess what? There are so many other ethical, evidence-based options for kids with low self-esteem. There's no reason to banish them to the woods and subject them to the risk of death or serious injury.

Quote
We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.

Doesn't square with the report.
They were recently sued (July 2006) regarding the death of a boy named Matthew Meyer, who died while attending their program. The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.

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In fact, half our staff was coming out of wilderness first responder class (80 hours total to handle things like this) on our week OFF the day that Matt died.


Handle things "like this"?
What does WFR training teach about the effects of sudden drug withdrawal?
How much did Matthew weigh?
Was heat a factor? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.
What bipolar med was he taking? Some psych drugs tend to raise body temp without exercion.
What's the maximum temp you can march kids at? It's 90* in Utah where they've had numerous deaths due to heat exhaustion and have had to revise their maximum temp from 95* to 90*. Not that programs adhere to these rules, but they're on the books.

Quote
We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there. There were about 20 medical professionals with Matt that day. 8 WFR trainees plus our instructor from out of state, an ambulance crew, our field medic, and Matt's field staff members could not keep Matt alive. It just was not true that people just stood back and watched him die unconcerned.

Doesn't square with the mother's claim.
The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.

You admit yourself
Quote
What happened is that Matt sat down by the tree away from his group and started making snoring noises.

Started making snoring noises? You mean, "death rattle"? Is that not covered in the 80 hours of WFR training? No EMTs on staff?

Seems to conflict with LSEs statement:
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.

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His group and staff thought he was goofing around, joking about how tired he was.


That's the same defense they all use, "We thought he was faking". How tired could he be after a 1 mile hike?

Quote
Well, do any of YOU know what a death rattle sounds like? I don't and neither did his staff.

Probably not, but then none of us take kids into the Outback, deny them their psych meds, and force them to march. Have you not read the 50 some accounts of deaths in Wilderness programs? If you and your colleagues haven't, perhaps you sh0uld so you have an understanding of what can go wrong. Apparently the WFR training isn't adequate.

Quote
But they knew Matt...and they knew that he was pretty respectful to them, so when he didn't stop snoring when they told him enough was enough...they went to check on him and found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR.

When did the vomitting begin? Respectful? First day, I'm sure he was terrified.

Quote
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.

Bullshit. But I will give you this. Wilderness programs would be wise to decline enrollment of kids on psych drugs, particularly if their policy is to withdraw kids from them. I don't know which one he was taking, but many carry the risk of death with sudden withdrawal. If you don't know this, how can you train others? If you know it and defered to Aspen/LSEs policy, you hold some responsibility.

What did you learn?
Where are you working now?
Do/would you train staff differently now?

Quote
What you guys don't see in the statistics while you are looking for ways to horribleize my job.

Most of us are well aware of the stats. Are you? 50 some kids have died in Wilderness "therapy". Sh0ould ANY form of therapy put kids at risk of death? Most of US think not. What's a shame is that parents don't really know the risks and stats either. They aren't making an informed decision when they hand their 'babies' over to imbeciles to force march them threw the wilds.

I'm sure it was shocking to realize you'd killed a kid. Imagine how his folks must feel. I can't help but wonder if the drug caused the heart defect and the withdrawal and stress of hiking in the heat and high humidity, put too much strain on his heart.

Quote
LSE helps many many many kids, usually when we get them we care more about them than they care about themselves. Not because it is Aspen, not because it is wilderness, but because of the people who live and work with these kids every day.


Yeh, yeh, yeh. The "Window of Loss" excuse. A few die, but soooo many are helped. You're here for one reason. To defend your profession.

Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2007, 10:02:36 AM »
I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family.  Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty.  I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.  
We need to wait for a decision on this.

“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2007, 10:16:54 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family.  Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty.  I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.  
We need to wait for a decision on this.

“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.


can you show me a copy of the autopsy report where it states the kid would have died that day regardless of the conditions under which he was operating?  thanks in advance.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 10:27:52 AM »
A remarkable amount of kids who are 15 years old or thereabouts seem to have heart attacks at wilderness. This is a cause of death I had not ever heard of in teens before i came across this sordid excuse for an industry. The fist defence is always it seems "natural causes".

You hear of 55 year old fat guys who have enjoyed the good life for 30 years having a heart attack on the golf course and their Doctor mates saying that it was a natural cause. This is because they have been eating steak and drinking scotch and smoking for decades. How often do you hear of kids even fat ones "naturally" having a stroke or heart attack?
I dont think the staff in all cases are sadistic monsters but their idiocy appears to be astounding. i dont doubt most feel they are helping. But the idea that physical or psychological pain is good for anyone defies logic. i wonder if when the guidelines set the temp bar at 90 they take into account the humidity factor of Texas in the height of summer.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2007, 10:32:41 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.


That is not true. IF that were true programs would be shut down willingly and staff would not try and cover up their murderous behavior.  How can you people live with yourself supporting an ideology that is designed to hurt kids and sometimes kill them? You have no shame.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2007, 10:56:05 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.  
We need to wait for a decision on this.

Have you seen the police report? Apparently there are more facts than have been reported. I can't imagine his mother would fabricate the claim that:
Quote
the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.

Think she just pulled that out of thin air?
Why did LSE refuse to administer his bipolar medication?
Which drug was it? What are the warnings about sudden withdrawal for that drug?
Was his mother and/or pdoc informed that he would be denied his drug?
Did they sign a release to approve his withdrawal?
Who was supervising the withdrawal?
Was he vomitting before or after the "death rattle" was observed?

Quote
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.

Hardly. S/he was not there when it happened, according to his/her account of events, therefore is not a first-hand witness. S/he shook his hand that day and didn't arrive on the scene until after there was a medical emergency.
Quote
We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there.


Where are the other staff/teens who witnessed this first-hand? They would know better, and are most likely the ones who were interviewed by law enforcement/EMTs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2007, 11:07:06 AM »
Why would anyone who did not study medicine for 7 years be arrogant or retarded enough to unilaterally decide to take anyone off a medically prescribed drug? What kind of training or induction sessions would even give somebody the harebrained notion that this is acceptable or wise?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2007, 11:10:28 AM »
Quote
Where are the other staff/teens who witnessed this first-hand? They would know better, and are most likely the ones who were interviewed by law enforcement/EMTs.

Exactly my point,  we need to listen to everyones account of what happened, not just the negative reports.

I have no idea what happened up there, so we need to listen to all the people who were and not dismiss their stories.  Since it is going to court there will be more focus on the details and events that lead up to the boys death that day.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2007, 11:12:05 AM »
Oz Girl wrote:
Quote
A remarkable amount of kids who are 15 years old or thereabouts seem to have heart attacks at wilderness. This is a cause of death I had not ever heard of in teens before i came across this sordid excuse for an industry. The fist defence is always it seems "natural causes".


OzGirl, it is actually more common than people think.  I believe you may view it as a problem unique to the wilderness programs because any negativity towards the industry seems to find its way into the fornits forum.  What goes unreported here are all the children dieing from heart attacks outside the industry.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.gamespot.com/arcade/action/d ... 01687.html

http://www.thestar.com/article/165392

http://www.gothamist.com/2007/02/14/whats_worse_tha.php
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 12:08:34 PM »
Operation Number: 822139
Operation Type: General Residential Operation  
Operation/Caregiver Name: Lone Star Expeditions
Location Address: 1728 FOREST ROAD 5101
GROVETON, TX 75845  
Mailing Address: 1728 Forest Road 5101
Groveton, TX 75845  
Phone Number: 936-831-3133
County: TRINITY
Website Address: Http://www.Lonestarexpeditions.com
Email Address: [email protected]
Administrator/Director Name: Michael Bednarz
Programatic Services: Child Care,Transitional Living,Therapeutic Camp
Type of Issuance: Full Permit
Treatment Services: Emotional Disorders,
Issuance Date: 6/27/2003
Conditions on Permit:    No
Days of Operation: N/A
Total Capacity: 32
Licensed to Serve Ages: 13 - 17
Corrective Action: No
Adverse Action: No
Temporarily Closed: No
   
This operation is scheduled to be inspected every 6-9 months.  [Curious- First inspection noted was April 2005]
For more information on this operation you may contact a local licensing office.  

Violations from Aug 2005 State Inspection:
-One staff record had an expired CPR certification (CPR expired 12/8/04).
-One staff record reviewed had only two documented trainings for the year 2004. One of the trainings was for 1 hour, and the second training had no instructor listed, nor the duration of the training itself.
-The fire inspection expired on 3/8/05.
-Two staff records reviewed lacked the four clock hours of annual behavior intervention training. One staff record had CPI certification which expired 1/16/05, and another had CPI certification which expired 12/20/03.
-Two staff records reviewed had expired criminal and Central registry background checks.

Violations from May 2006 State Inspection:
-In comparing the active employee list to the current People List in CLASS, it was noted that one employee's background check had not been resubmitted within 24 months. It was corrected by the facility at the Inspection.
-Out of three staff member records reviewed, CPR training had expired for one of the direct care staff members. The facility stated it was an over-sight and that the staff member will up-date his CPR training as soon as possible.
-The annual Health Inspection has expired. The facility is scheduling an appointment with the local Health Department.
-The LP Gas Inspection expired on 4/5/06. The facility is making an appointment with the Railroad Commission to update their inspection.
~~

Quote
§748.303. When must I report and document a serious incident?
(1) A child dies while in your care.
(A)(ii) Report as soon as possible, but no later than 24 hours after the incident or occurrence.

Curious, There's no report listed on the TDFPS site on or around Sept 2004.

§748.681. What minimum qualifications must a caregiver meet?
DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
Each employee must meet the following qualifications before you can count him in the child/caregiver ratio:
(1) Be at least:
(A) 18 years old if all the children in the group the caregiver serves are under 13 years old; or
(B) 21 years old if at least one child in the group the caregiver serves is 13 years old or older;
(2) Have one of the following from a program recognized by the Texas Education Agency (TEA) or a public educational entity outside of Texas:
(A) High school diploma; or
(B) High school equivalency, such as a General Educational Development
(GED); and
(3) Be able to read, write, and communicate with co-workers, medical personnel, and other persons necessary to care for the child’s needs.

Re: Maximum Temperatures for hiking in Tx Wilderness programs.

Quote
§748.3843. What are the requirements for monitoring children’s safety and health during hiking or camping excursions?
DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
Caregivers participating in the hiking or camping activity must ensure that:
(1) Each child participating in the hiking or camping activity has the clothing, equipment, and provisions necessary to protect the child from the environment, including insect repellent and sunscreen;
(2) A child does not carry a load of more than 30% of the child’s body weight;
(3) Hiking does not exceed the physical capabilities of the weakest member of the group. If a participating child cannot or will not hike, the group must not continue unless other provisions have been made to care for the child;
(4) In temperatures above 80 degrees Fahrenheit:
(A) Children are offered a minimum of three quarts of drinking water per day;
(B) Electrolyte replacement is available to children at all times; and
(C) Other techniques are available to cool a participant, such as water to coat a child’s body or cold packs; and
(5) Potable water is available at each campsite. Caregivers must verify water cache location information before the group leaves camp each day, if applicable.


Better than some, but still lacking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 12:33:28 PM »
Daniel Walker and Kimber Wilson were lucky they weren't in a wilderness program where symptoms are dismissed as faking and medical attention is denied until the imbeciles finally realize the kid is dying. Quick response saved Kimber and Daniel. Alex Corrance died doing what he loved, not being forced march through the wilderness.

Actually the majority of the 50some kids who have died in wilderness died due to preventable accidents, medical neglect, heat exhaustion, unlawful restraints, and more recently there's a case of West Nile from a tick or mosquito. Two growing risk factors are Psych drugs (many enlarge the heart) and obesity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2007, 03:26:51 PM »
Actually kids are much safer being in a wilderness program where they are exposed to staff who are trained to keep kids safe.  If an emergency occurred like a heart attack I think any parent would rather have their child in the hands of trained people than sitting in some friends basement or driving around somewhere with people that have the response time and training of Ozzy Osborne.

I think it is fair to say (and I agree with you here, Deborah) most kids deaths are preventable and this applies whether the child is in a program or not.  The key is where are they safest and surrounded the most by people who are trained to respond and keep them safe?
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2007, 03:58:52 PM »
to the who:

before you stated that the autopsy report showed this child would have died anyway, no matter where he was or under what conditions.  i was waiting for you to provide the link to the source you got your information from, seemingly the autopsy report.  can you post the link to the autopsy report you read to lead you to that conclusion?

also, can you post the links to the information about wilderness camps being safer than public schools?  in my public school, we have a full time, licensed nurse there every day to attend to emergencies immediately.  we also have several trained emt's as well.

didn't the place where this child died have several lapsed certificates, several non-certified employees without background checks and no nurse?  this hardly seems like a safe environment.  aren't most wildernessprograms also not licensed by the states they operate in and don't they employ relatively untrained and very inexperienced uncertified staff members?  and these places aren't even monitored by the state.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2007, 04:25:07 PM »
guest wrote:
Quote
before you stated that the autopsy report showed this child would have died anyway, no matter where he was or under what conditions. i was waiting for you to provide the link to the source you got your information from, seemingly the autopsy report. can you post the link to the autopsy report you read to lead you to that conclusion?

Here you go:

LSE Staff Wrote:
Quote
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.

You could PM ” LSE Staff” I don’t think he will post it up on a forum, I wouldn’t., but you should check with him.

Quote
also, can you post the links to the information about wilderness camps being safer than public schools?

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502

Quote
didn't the place where this child died have several lapsed certificates, several non-certified employees without background checks and no nurse? this hardly seems like a safe environment. aren't most wildernessprograms also not licensed by the states they operate in and don't they employ relatively untrained and very inexperienced uncertified staff members? and these places aren't even monitored by the state.


Not totally true, I believe there were some expired back ground checks.  You indicated there was no nurse.  Is one required?  I didn’t see this requirement.  If the child was lucky enough to collapse near the nurses office at school then you may have a point.  But after school…my point is….  I don’t think Ozzy Osborne would effectively perform CPR or be the best person to be around my child if he/she had a heart attack.  None of my children’s friends were trained or were certified to handle a heart attack when they were in high school.
In wilderness the children are with counselors 24/7.  Public school is 5-6 hours?
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