Lone Star Expeditions

[TheWho]

This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?

Wow, that is a huge question.  Not sure how to answer that easily.  Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort.  Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first.  Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.

I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.  

Do you see it this way?

[Oz girl]

This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?

Wow, that is a huge question.  Not sure how to answer that easily.  Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort.  Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first.  Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.

I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.  

Do you see it this way?

What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.

i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.

[hanzomon4]

No who, therapy does not purposefully involve making a kid miserable to the point of faking sick and then dying. If we follow your logic we should all be shocking our depressed, drug addicted, "disrespectful" teens with stun guns because, while painful, they'll grow emotionally.

Question, how did Ian emotionally grow?  How did Anderson emotionally grow? Giovanni? James? did their discomfort afford them any emotional growth? Also why is it that programs don't warn parents that during the "transition" complaints of sickness or discomfort will be treated like possible manipulation?

This is B.S.

A few kids may die because of this willful and purposeful neglect but how many suffer needlessly. I say needlessly because I don't believe in torturing kids to get them to emotionally grow, I'm sure you would call any suffering necessary.    

I also wonder about this, kids get sent to programs for being into things that may bring harm to them like drugs, abusive relationships, depression. Why then do program-parents ignore the dangers of programs in regards to the safety of their children?  

*waits for the who's response*

*can't wait so makes a who parody"

I'm not saying that kids must suffer I'm only pointing out, in response to Oz girls question, that pain is often apart of growth. What happened to Ian , Anderson, James, and Giovanni were all tragic mistakes that will only serve to raise the bar in the future. Shame on you hanzo for using their tragic deaths to further your one-sided agenda.

Comparing Programs to dangerous attitudes and behaviors that sometimes result in death is not fair because programs try to help kids and only has the best interest of the child in mind. The deaths that do happen in programs are tragic mistakes that we should not be so quick to blame on the PROgram

[TheWho]

oz girl wrote:

What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.

Yes, but I have seen many of these kids start out very resistant and come out the other end with a great deal of self esteem, noticeably healthier and happier.  Many indicated it was good for them but most wouldn’t want to go back.  There are kids that dig in their heels the whole way and get nothing out of it and I think that is what we see referenced here on fornits.  I agree that the person needs to embrace the desire to change and it takes time (different amounts for each person) to find the comfort level within themselves or the group they are with, trusting their counselors etc. that is needed to start the healing process that occurs during these wilderness stays.

The ideal place for this to occur is at home surrounded by their loved ones and the majority of kids can be effected at this local level but a very few cannot and need to be reached outside of their environment, again not ideal, but least restrictive.

Do you believe nay of these kids do well and get turned around?

i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.

I cant agree here at all.  I don’t see how a government run place or non profit is going to be any more compassionate or effective.  Non profit is over rated and doesn’t really mean what you think.  Everyone makes money except the company.  The employees still drive Mercedes and get bonuses for a good year, they just don’t have a board of directors pushing them to increase profits.

[Oz girl]

You will note i did not mention the state at all so it is irrelevant to this particular debate. What I mentioned was ther *possibility* that with profit out of the equation there is a remote chancce that those involved on a high level actually are altruistically motivated.
I dont doubt that there are some kids who come out better behaved some grow out of things, others asr "scared straight" this does not make it OK.
You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.

the only person i have ever known who had to go away for "treatment" as a minor is a young anorexic. Her family visited her in the hospital every day she was there. All staff were comitted to getting her out ASAP. Friends brought flowers and visted the way they would for anyone else in hospital. It was widely recognised that she needed more not less community support. She did improve and is still stabliising. So this idea that manufaturing pain to pomote growth is absurd

[TheWho]

You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.

No I didn’t miss the point.  You asked “How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid” and I answered that discomfort typically accompanies any growth or positive transition.

The specifics I am not in a position to know professionally.  Some people overcoming an addiction may benefit from a change in diet, hiking in the woods, fresh air, focusing on a project, keeping busy 24/7, I don’t know, I am not an addiction expert.  I have seen these kids go in and come out and the majority experience 180 degree turnaround.

Would this turn around be better if it occurred at home?  Dam right it would, I am all for it.  But if it cant or it fails we need to fine the next best place and if that fails we try again until we get the child the help he needs.
The last thing we want to do is say oh well it is not working at home, lets give up and hope he grows out of it.  Most of these kids are asking for help, they may not be saying the words but the intent is there.

[Oz girl]

The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.
As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.


What tough love does do is reassure parents and give them absolution for their kids problems. Aspens promotional materials lead the charge with this.
http://www.aspeneducation.com/video/parentsspeak.html

From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies

[TheWho]

oz girl wrote:

The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.

I don’t believe anyone should have the power to inflict pain on another.  Removing comforts i.e. cell phones, privileges, being grounded, removing bad influences, people, places….sure.  Restricting food, beatings etc. is criminal and the authorities should be called.

As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.

I agree, in part Oz Girl, many would even have us believe that all kids will grow out of it, but the numbers show that thousands of children die each year because they couldn’t be reached thru local services, parents ignored or were not aware of the signs etc. The kids that have parents who recognized the signs, engaged local intervention or help and found this to be ineffective and needed to look outside the home for their children to get help is a very small percentage.  
Does “Tough love” work?  Sure, how effective is it?  I don’t think we know the whole answer to that.

From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies

I think we also need to look at the fact that from a purely business point of view the schools want to have these kids be successful (high success rates) so they are not going to accept kids who are outside the schools area of expertise and refer them to another place, so it isn’t as hard a sell as everyone here would have you believe.  The schools wouldn’t last very long if the majority of the kids didn’t do well.

[Oz girl]

If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.

                                                                                                                                                      As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case ::roflmao::

-what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it
-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.

Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.
Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?

[TheWho]

If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.

Good point.  If the data points to it having no effect then I see no reason to continue using this approach.  I really believe the industry needs more research to determine what is working and what is not so as to support and drive a more data driven decision mind set and direction.

As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case

No, I guess what I mean is if research determined that kids were not benefiting from their services (TBS) than the business model would either have to change (shift) or they would slowly go out of business.  So it doesn’t make any sense to accept kids who they know are going to fail for the sake of a short term profit.  Strategically it is a bad business decision.  Independent start-ups (without a board to report back to) may try this but they will quickly become fly by night outfits and move around to avoid exposing their failures and accept their short term gains.

what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it

I would expect they will not survive for very long if they continue to miss their target strengths when accepting children and don’t adjust their screening process.

-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.

 Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.

I have never seen this series but I don’t put much faith in its sincerity.  Members of Survivor which has been one of the strictest reality shows are starting to come out and admit some people were given toothbrushes, feminine items, soap etc. even though they had not earned the privilege.  The women were encouraged to wear as little as possible and the camera people were instructed on what to shoot.  So what you see is only what they want you to see to keep it interesting.  If you stand out, throw a fit or play to the audience you will get more air time and become known, maybe earn a full scholarship to a TBS, like I believe one of them did I heard here.  In Brat Camp if they only showed the kids sitting around the camp fire singing then the show would have been canceled after 2 weeks.  I don’t know if this is everyone’s perception, did you feel the show was reflecting reality?  

Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?

Everyone has pretty much gone to high school, so you don’t need to search the internet for someone to relate to or talk about your experiences, but TBS is unique so some people may want to search for others who went thru the same thing, bitch about the food, tell war stories.

[Oz girl]

I have never seen this series but I don’t put much faith in its sincerity.  Members of Survivor which has been one of the strictest reality shows are starting to come out and admit some people were given toothbrushes, feminine items, soap etc. even though they had not earned the privilege.  The women were encouraged to wear as little as possible and the camera people were instructed on what to shoot.  So what you see is only what they want you to see to keep it interesting.  If you stand out, throw a fit or play to the audience you will get more air time and become known, maybe earn a full scholarship to a TBS, like I believe one of them did I heard here.  In Brat Camp if they only showed the kids sitting around the camp fire singing then the show would have been canceled after 2 weeks.  I don’t know if this is everyone’s perception, did you feel the show was reflecting reality?  
.

I dont know. I know some of the things they did  (the carts, impact letters etc were consistent with the things that survivors have complained of). i know Marcus described similar things about the wilderness component of ASR (now defunct) I know it makes no sense to claim you take kids who were caught with porn if this is not the case so in that respect the guy was likely to be truthful.

i think that both the kids and the staff at times performed for the camera. Particularly that cretin wayne winder. i also think the parents did their share of acting as well.  But what i think Brat camp was truthful about was the mentality of the industry. Why would you boast about all the ways you make kids cry (WW) if you dont beielve this is a good thing? Why would you make a huge show of talking about how an athsmatic kid is typical of the little fakers  you see regularly if you do not believe it to be true? I also think the series on TAR highlighted the idiocy of the staff at these places. You should bear in mind that the narrator was largely on the side of the staff as well. WHat i think brat camp did lie about was how miraculous the "turnaround" is for the kids. I note they made no mention of the fact that american kids often finish wilderness and go straight to TBS in a private paddy wagon either. What was most disturbing about brat camp was the spin it put on those program because it showed hideous treatment of kids but encouraged strongly the idea that this was a good thing.

I note too you did not answer the question. i know this is something you are not fond of.  Do you beleive the behaviours I initially listed are right or appropriate?

[TheWho]

Aspen gets final say on what gets released and I am sure the announcers take the staffs side on details.  Although it is not true that the kids are taken from wilderness to a TBS by paddy wagon, to my knowledge.  Here are some thoughts in regards to your list.

-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?

Good question,  Really dont know.  I wouldnt send my child away for watching HBO movies.  Its tough to keep a teen home on Saturday nights, rather have him home than out somewhere.

-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on

I didn’t see this so I don’t know the back ground.  If the food was good quality and contained the correct balance and enough calories I don’t see a problem.  If they were below minimum calories or going against a doctors request I wouldn’t agree with this.

-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her.

I don’t believe in any hitting at all.  I’m not one of those “No spank” fanatics but we never spanked our kids (some people feel we should have)

-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours

Seems like a long time to be restrained like that.  It seems a little bazaar, imagine holding someone’s hands back for 2 hours.  I use to wrestle in high school and after 15 minutes on the mats with someone and I would be exhausted and I was in good shape, I find it hard to believe.

- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back
and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"

That’s not right at all.  Don’t believe in that type of behavior.

- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a
day to teach them to like each other.

It seems really weird, they did this on TV?

These are not behaviors that I embrace or approve of…they do come from a tv show so I must take it with a grain of salt.

[Oz girl]

Well who if you take something the programs allow to be documented on TV with a grain of salt as well as what kids who have been through the system say it seems that this is a pretty big case of denial. Tnak your lucky stars you are not at wilderness youd be eating cold porridge till they got you to see the "truth"

[TheWho]

Well who if you take something the programs allow to be documented on TV with a grain of salt as well as what kids who have been through the system say it seems that this is a pretty big case of denial. Tnak your lucky stars you are not at wilderness youd be eating cold porridge till they got you to see the "truth"

I have traveled extensively and realize many people view Americans by what they see on television and believe me it isn’t the case (except maybe the "Simpsons").  The Television industry may market a show as a reality series but it is just a stage show like every other show, one needs to take it with a grain of salt.  Sure it parallels the wilderness industry, but they need to step it up to keep everyone interested.  It is boring to hear all the kids are having a good day but if there is confrontation then they would rather film that part and the people know to step it up a notch.
It doesn’t mean I take peoples accounts here with a grain of salt, just the TV industry.
At SUWS, where my daughter attended,  they were eating Lentils, rice and garlic the last night (which I was told was typical)  My daughter cooked the meal and we sat up and talked about her experience, we slept on the ground with this screeching train that would go by every 2 hours down the mountain.  I had the worst headache when morning came and barely slept a wink.  My daughter got a kick out of seeing me suffer a little I think, and she was used to it by then… ( we weren’t much of a camping family).  No toothbrush, shower etc. She said something like “Dad, you have to push thru it, we need to meet up on the trail”  Ha,Ha,Ha,  who was in charge then?
So I realize the place isn’t a resort, just not sure how much of the TV series to believe.

[Oz girl]

But in all seriousness you joke about the fact that kids get sent there for watching porn. You are aware that you were in discomfort, even pain for 1 night but OK with your daughter being this way for weeks.You claim that both the TV and kids are exaggerating and that those who claim very real distress and trauma are just those that were "stubborn".
Why do you do this? It does not seem at all a laughing matter to me. This mind set is quite sinister and it is one that TV shows like brat camp as well as the whole industry encourage. Real people are being hurt by all of this. How is it that you can be really glib in defending this industry? To me the real tragedy is the kids who spend 8 weeks cold, miserable and sometimes in real physical pain as much as it is the ian Augusts and Aaron Bacons because there aremany such kids who never make the news but go on to live with a lot of unneccesary demons.