Split from ASR: Private School or RTC

[Deborah]

TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50    Post subject:      
 
Guest wrote: Quote:

This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.

This wasn?t stated by me.

Quote:

Uh, sounds good on paper, but when there's no mechanism to report abuse, the kid is shit out of luck. Also, the parents are manipulated so heavily by the program that if there kid complains to them, they are not believed. Often kids will not risk angering their parent or the program out of fear that they will be kept longer.

Your excuses just don't cut the mustard, Who.  

Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there. I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.

I looked back over the past several pages and I don?t see where I was making any excuses.
 
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 22:47    Post subject:      
 
Quote:
Guest wrote: Quote:

This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.

This wasn?t stated by me.

No, but you justified it by stating that most places (according to you) restrict communication for kids, so it really isn't that big of a deal.

See:

Quote:

My point is there are varying degrees of restriction. Your child can not speak to you during school hours in many schools, except during lunch. When I went to school you couldn?t use the phone unless you went to the principal?s office and used his phone. Many summer camps restrict the use of phones, kids would go on outward bound trips for months and only communicate a few times back home.

Quote:

Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there. I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.

Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.

As for this:
Quote:

I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between

Do you have an actual basis for this claim or are you just hoping this is the case?

Quote:

I looked back over the past several pages and I don?t see where I was making any excuses.

Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:

Quote:
Deborah wrote:

"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".

I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......

If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?
 
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2537
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:36    Post subject:      
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Of course Cindy, when you think youre right it's all bold letters and laughter, after youve made an total fool of yourself it's "mucking it up".

Whatever you say Cindy.

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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:02    Post subject:      
 
Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!

Quote:

Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.

A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.

Quote:

Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:
Quote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".

I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......

If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?

Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..
 
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:30    Post subject:      
 
Quote:

Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!

Cindy there's no reason for you to get so upset. Espically for this very reason, how many times last year did I ask what your objective was in discussing HLA, since you knew nothing about it? Knowing absolutly nothing about the subject matter didnt prevent you from pretending to be an expert on the matter. Whatsmore, you won't find a comment from me on here pertaining to a subject I don't have some degree of knowledge on. Sorry Cindy, I limit myself to talking about things I have at least a rudimentary understanding of, a habit you may want to consider picking up sometime. It may save you from having to constantly put your foot in your mouth.

Quote:

A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.

Cindy neither my comment nor the one I was responding to was referring exclusivily to ASR. If you'll calm down and look closely you'll see I didn't even mention ASR in my comment. I was speaking in overall general terms, I'm not sure how you got confused on that. Slow down, have a drink of water, do your usual relaxation technique involving controlled substances and then get back to me. When you get overly excited you make even less sense then normal.

Quote:

Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..

Ummmmm Cindy again you've got to calm down and pay closer attention. Here take a closer look:

Quote:

TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2201
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:35 am Post subject:

Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".

I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......

Now it's true that the bulk of the comment was written by Deborah, the bottom portion, or the "excuse" as we both agreed to term it, was made by you. I'm glad that you can at least see it for what it was, and I look forward to laughing at you as you pretend you didnt first lie about not having made an excuse but then make a secondary blunder in forgetting what you yourself wrote.

Take it easy on yourself Cindy, from the looks of things youre about to blow a gasket.

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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:31    Post subject:      

TheWho wrote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".

I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......

Just wanted to get this in there before Cindy had a chance to edit his latest faux pau.
 
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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:45    Post subject:      
 
Lets not muck up this thread anymore than it is, I will answer you in the ?thewho?. thread.
 
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[Deborah]

Guest
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:38    Post subject:      
 
TheWho wrote:

Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!

Quote:
Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.

A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.

Quote:
Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:
Quote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".

I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......

If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?

Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..

Oooohh... Baby's ANGRY! Look at all those  's! Baby is very angry! Settle down, Baby. Stop crying because RB proved you wrong again!  
 
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2537
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:41    Post subject:      

Cindy, why are you deleting your previous posts? Are you feeling a touch embarrassed about being made to look a total and complete fool?
 
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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2201
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:42    Post subject:      
 
okay, If you want to double post: I just think it is a waste:

Quote:

Cindy neither my comment nor the one I was responding to was referring exclusivily to ASR.

Thank you, all I am asking is to stick to what you know. If your experience is with another school like HLA, then state that.

Quote:

Now it's true that the bulk of the comment was written by Deborah, the bottom portion, or the "excuse" as we both agreed to term it, was made by you. I'm glad that you can at least see it for what it was, and I look forward to laughing at you as you pretend you didnt first lie about not having made an excuse but then make a secondary blunder in forgetting what you yourself wrote.

I still don?t see an excuse?. I see a response?my point has always been that these schools evolve over time and what happened 15,20,30 years ago doesn?t always apply today?..I want you to keep current, Bob.
 
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[TheWho]

Thanks, Deborah!!  Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.

[RobertBruce]

Again it's trolling only because the position is opposed to your nonsense, anything that falls in line with your programming is a real contribution. You're such a tool Cindy.

[Anonymous]

uh oh!  baby's getting angry again!  baby who is going to throw another tantrum!

[Deborah]

Thanks, Deborah!!  Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.

TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50    Post subject:      
 
Guest wrote: Quote:

This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.

Who:
This wasn?t stated by me.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Unless you have severe brain damage, to the point of not remembering what you said just two posts prior to this denial, then your intention was to start another trolling session.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 921#249341

[TheWho]

Thanks, Deborah!!  Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.

TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50    Post subject:      
 
Guest wrote: Quote:

This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.

Who:
This wasn?t stated by me.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Unless you have severe brain damage, to the point of not remembering what you said just two posts prior to this denial, then your intention was to start another trolling session.

http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 921#249341

Deborah,  I never made the statement that kids in public or private schools were fobbiden to talk to family for months,  I would never make a statement like that.  I think what you misconstrued is that I said:
?  Communication is restricted in varying degrees in all educational settings (Private and public), wilderness and Therapeutic Boarding schools are no exception?  ..... Someone ,guest, took that as meaning that all the school have the same requirements...which of course they dont....why do you have to be so harsh?  Just ask me what I meant, wouldnt that be easier, to clear up what my thoughts were?

[Deborah]

No, of course you didn't. Not your style. Your MO is to leave it vague enough so the back-and-forth goes on for pages before you clarify or divulge what you really meant.  
 
Were you not attempting to imply that TBS and public schools are not all that different? Comparing the limited contact kids in TBSs have with their parents and the brainwashing they undergo re: "manipulating their parents" with accusations about the program, with kids in public school who see their parents every night and can easily report the day's happenings. They're not even in the same ball park.

Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there.

Precisely why programs should not be allowed to sever contact between parent and child, ever, unless it's been proved in court to be detrimental to the child.

I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.

Probably few and far between? Please cite any program(s) that doesn't require parents to severely limit contact with their kid because it's 'necessary' for the 'emotional growth'. Any program(s) that don't deny contact with parents as punishment. It's the CEDU way.

[TheWho]

Were you not attempting to imply that TBS and public schools are not all that different?

Would that be unethical?  Almost like saying TBS and RTC, Boot Camps are the same?

Comparing the limited contact kids in TBSs have with their parents and the brainwashing they undergo re: "manipulating their parents" with accusations about the program, with kids in public school who see their parents every night and can easily report the day's happenings. They're not even in the same ball park.

Doesn?t sound like any TBS I know.  You must be talking about a specific place, not all TBSs.

Probably few and far between? Please cite any program(s) that doesn't require parents to severely limit contact with their kid because it's 'necessary' for the 'emotional growth'. Any program(s) that don't deny contact with parents as punishment. It's the CEDU way.

Name any traditional boarding school that doesn?t limit contact with a child?s family.  The shear distance alone should be abusive in your definition, why limit it to writing letters or phone calls?

[RobertBruce]

Would that be unethical? Almost like saying TBS and RTC, Boot Camps are the same?

They have more in common then a TBS does with a public school. Anyone who'd actually experienced the two (not you) knows that.

Doesn?t sound like any TBS I know. You must be talking about a specific place, not all TBSs.

That you know? Cindy you dont know any TBS's. You bought into the brochures of two programs. One of which is apparently being sued for abusing kids, the other has been operating the entire time without being properly licensed.

Since youre such an expert though why dont you tell us of a single TBS that doesnt censor or monitor communications. A single one Cindy.

Name any traditional boarding school that doesn?t limit contact with a child?s family. The shear distance alone should be abusive in your definition, why limit it to writing letters or phone calls?

Wow youre stupid. It would be laughable if it werent for the fact that kids are being abused because of idiots like you. Explain to us how a traditional boarding school limiting the time or the location in which a kid may call his parents is the same thing as a TBS screening and censoring all incoming and outgoing mail/email as well as having staff members standing by to terminate any phone call in which a kid states anything that might be deemed manipulation and then punishing the child for doing so? How many traditional boarding schools prevent the child from calling his parents for weeks or even months at a time?

Rattle off a few names for us Cindy.

[TheWho]

They have more in common then a TBS does with a public school. Anyone who'd actually experienced the two (not you) knows that.

Well, that?s a good start, Bob.  Instead of just being critical, why not share your thoughts a little more.  How much more in common?

That you know? Cindy you dont know any TBS's. You bought into the brochures of two programs. One of which is apparently being sued for abusing kids, the other has been operating the entire time without being properly licensed.

You faltered a little, there, Bob.  Try providing a few examples yourself?..  this will show the readers you have knowledge on the subject and you can provide some insight to new readers with some school names??.

Wow youre stupid. It would be laughable if it werent for the fact that kids are being abused because of idiots like you. Explain to us how a traditional boarding school limiting the time or the location in which a kid may call his parents is the same thing as a TBS screening and censoring all incoming and outgoing mail/email as well as having staff members standing by to terminate any phone call in which a kid states anything that might be deemed manipulation and then punishing the child for doing so? How many traditional boarding schools prevent the child from calling his parents for weeks or even months at a time?

Rattle off a few names for us Cindy.

Again, thanks for your attempt, but try giving input yourself i.e. provide information, instead of saying anothers is wrong.  It will gain you more credibility and you can use the time to explain how much time is too long for having contact with home, which schools that you are personally familiar with limit phone usage and terminate calls.

Without the info, bob, you appear to be just an angry reader with no answers.  Come on?try engaging in the dialog a little, share your knowledge, you may learn to like it.

[RobertBruce]

This coming from the guy who has no credibility.....


Cindy Ill be glad to follow through on all your suggestions provided you can do a single thing for me.


Back up just one of your ridiculus claims. I dont even care which one, I just want see if you can.

[RobertBruce]

yeah I didnt think you could......oh well. G'Night Cindy!

[Anonymous]

TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?

Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who?  THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL.  This is the part you're missing.

I take it you dont know much about ASR.  My daughter called every week, she could tell me then or walk down to the center of town and use the phone at the store.

If they were in wilderness they could call the cops when they get out, it only takes one kid getting raped to shut the place down, even as a minimum for an investigation.

This young man attended ASR after Who's daughter was there. Note the discrepencies.

Here is my testimonial for the website:

My name is Richard Meehan. I attended three different programs starting at 4:15AM on October 23rd, 2003 to April 21st, 2005. I attended ALE (Adirondack  Leadership Expeditions), ASR (Academy at Swift River), and DA (Discovery Academy). I was woken up at exactly 4:15AM on Oct 23rd.

I live in New York City and a 7ft tall native American man opens the door to my room and turns on my light. I see my parents standing behind him and another 6ft 3 in guy behind them. At first I thought I was getting robbed. Then he said "Were from Right Direction, we're here to take you..." I would have tried to run but considering i lived on the 5th floor of my building, i decided against going out the window. I immediately realized my situation. The guy told me to get on my clothes, which i did, after he thoroughly searched through them. He took me by the belt loop of my pants downstairs on the elevator. I was still in shock, i did not know what to think or do. My doorman was on the elevator and walked over to the door to open it. The expression on his face was of pure shock. When I saw him I had my teeth grinding kind of like a grin except it was not.

They told me on the way down that they would treat me fine if i did not resist. If i did, they said they had plenty of restraints to put me in and that they had handcuffs and footcuffs that they would use if "necessary". I felt trapped, there was nothing i could do. I did not consent to this.

After a five or six hour drive we arrived in the Adirondack mountains. I remember being taken out of the car and up to the room where the director of the program was. About eight staff members were standing around me in the room and they asked me a bunch of questions about how i felt. I didn't't't feel particularly good at the moment and then the drove me out to a forest. It was snowing out and the temperature was -10. They told me to take off my clothes so I could get into gear. I was outside without clothing for i guess about five minutes and then I was blindfolded and guided through the woods where the staff gave me my course book. I spent my first three nights with two staff before i went to my actual group. When i met the group i was with a bunch of kids in the same situation. During my entire stay in wilderness it was freezing outside. There were some nights it was so cold they had to let us use tents they use on the base camp of Mount Everest. There was one day I remember it was so cold i could not move my fingers. After 41 days, I left the program and was driven by my parents to ASR.

ASR had a division of it that you went through in the beginning that was part wilderness. This one was not as bad since they had recently revised it so that we could sleep indoors. However, unlike my last wilderness, this one was more like a bootcamp. Instead of hiking and what not we did PT, Physical training. PT consisted of push-ups, crunches, etc. Whenever you got a consequence there it was in the form of PT. AKA if you were not in arms reach of your nalgene* you would have to do a certain amount of push ups and crunches. After a brief 29 days there, i made it to the main campus.

ASR's main campus was the worst place ive ever been. I hated every second i was there. We had group therapy three days a week for four hours each session. Group consisted of two or three staff, or our "therapists", who were not qualified to do therapy in a room with your Peer Group. The session consisted of staff getting you to talk about your biggest issues. If something bad had happened in your life they wanted you to say it. Then once you did they would use it against you, whether it was to make you feel guilty, to use that issue to make you turn against other kids, or whatever set of circumstances they could manipulate it into there favor.

At ASR, there was no information from the outside world, if you were not receiving any consequences which are in the form of Challenges or Self Studies, you could watch TV for about an hour on sunday. Your mail was open and read before given to you, all your 15 minute phone calls were monitored, and there was no contact with anyone other than your parents. If you started talking something that happened in the school to your parents that the staff didnt like, the staff monitoring the call would try to take the phone from you and say to them you were manipulating or try to disconnect the phone from the wall.

On August 2nd, I left ASR and my parents flew me out to Provo, Utah where I attended Discovery Academy. This school was pretty much more of the same. Only one therapist had credentials that i know of and the therapy was pretty much non-existant. You could not talk to any of the girls there except for one hour a day during the week in a supervised activity. The staff there were nice guys when they liked you but if they didn't they could make your life horrible. I never experienced that since i was good with them but other kids had problems. If there was ever an incident that occurred in either of these places it was downplayed by the staff. If you told your parents about it they said it was untrue.

Essentially, these programs are all corrupt. All they want is money and will figure out and say anything to get the parents to keep the kids there a little longer.

*A nalgene is a canteen that we were given to drink out of. In ALE we were given old military canteens, which with the extreme cold were impossible to drink out of due to the cold. Basically, when i was with the staff we hiked around for no reason. We were actually shadowing the main group but the director convinced my parents to put me with the staff for a few days so i can adjust. In reality it was to make me lose 3 days of progress i could have had to graduate. They didn't treat me badly. They asked me questions like why was i there, did i ever have wilderness-like experience. They tried to teach me how to do basic things like set up my tarp and properly pack my bag within the allotted time limit, although i do not remember how long they gave us to pack or set-up camp. Yes, other kids did suffer from hypothermia and im pretty sure people got frostbite, although not sure about that one. Actually, in ASR Base Camp (wilderness portion), there was a girl with poor blood circulation. I remember how her hands would turn blue during PT but the staff did not care.

ALE was located in the Adirondack Mountains of Upstate NY. ASR was located in Cummington, MA, and DA was located in Provo, UT.

http://www.teenliberty.org:80/Voices.htm

[TheWho]

3 schools in less than a year.  I am sure this kid had some major issues and needed to be monitored much more closely than most.  Not your average student experience.