Author Topic: Split from ASR: Private School or RTC  (Read 13430 times)

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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2007, 03:04:30 PM »
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The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step.

There is absolutely no basis for this claim whatsoever. You cannot expect people to have real discussions with you if all you are going to do is spout off program propoganda.

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No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.

Call up any licensed psychologist and they will all tell you the same thing; You cannot force anyone child or adult to accept or participate in therapy unless they are ready. It simply will not work, espically when threats are used to illicit participation.

Coercive therapy does not work and it is abusive.

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As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.

This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.

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You keep repeating that I dismiss people?s experiences, where did you read this? If you felt I did at any point, let me know and I will apologize. I listen to each person that speaks to me and I recognize their experience.

By doubting the abuse that people claim occurs or even downplaying it you are dismissing their claims.

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Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?


I didn?t see this as the original topic? But to answer your question, Yes, I do.



Why? I'm sure they feel that all the food they serve is safe and everything is clean? Would they want to take time out of their day to cater to the health dept if they feel they are doing a good job? Why is it important?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2007, 03:51:15 PM »
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Call up any licensed psychologist and they will all tell you the same thing; You cannot force anyone child or adult to accept or participate in therapy unless they are ready. It simply will not work, espically when threats are used to illicit participation.

Coercive therapy does not work and it is abusive.

Agreed, not continuously forced, no therapy will not work.  You may have to force their hand a little to get them started.  Once the child feels safe enough with the person/people around them they are able to start dealing with some of the issues that may be holding them back or sidetracking them.

Therapists are the ones that recommend many of these schools and they work side by side with the school therapists.  I think this is important because if the program isn?t working there is an extra communication link which can help redirect the child?s treatment.

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By doubting the abuse that people claim occurs or even downplaying it you are dismissing their claims.

I don?t believe I have doubted people?s stories nor down played them.


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Why? I'm sure they feel that all the food they serve is safe and everything is clean? Would they want to take time out of their day to cater to the health dept if they feel they are doing a good job? Why is it important?


Good question?..  There was a time I remember when places were being closed down by the board of health left and right and anytime I went into a restaurant I would look for their license or rating (A,B,B- etc.) which would be on the wall.  This would give me a sense that I wasn?t going to get poisoned/sick.
The owner of the place knew their food was safe but the public/ health department was mandating this as a requirement.  Once they got it and it was a good rating they were happy to display it prominently on their wall.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2007, 04:14:48 PM »
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Agreed, not continuously forced, no therapy will not work. You may have to force their hand a little to get them started. Once the child feels safe enough with the person/people around them they are able to start dealing with some of the issues that may be holding them back or sidetracking them.

and what if the child never feels ready? What if he never feels safe? The TBS's answer is to drop them into a lower peer group, how do you feel those kids should be dealt with?

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Therapists are the ones that recommend many of these schools and they work side by side with the school therapists. I think this is important because if the program isn?t working there is an extra communication link which can help redirect the child?s treatment.

True, but it has been establsihed often times those same therapist have no clue about whats really happening inside.

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I don?t believe I have doubted people?s stories nor down played them.

Sure you have, take a look:

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Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them!


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Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.

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After 2 decades there is enough "lack of incidences evidence" to indicate that many of these places are safe. Something would have surfaced, after 20 years, if there was a systemic problem.

So then with that in mind my question to you remains. Why do you continue to dismiss and downplay the claims of abuse people make against these places?

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Good question?.. There was a time I remember when places were being closed down by the board of health left and right and anytime I went into a restaurant I would look for their license or rating (A,B,B- etc.) which would be on the wall. This would give me a sense that I wasn?t going to get poisoned/sick.
The owner of the place knew their food was safe but the public/ health department was mandating this as a requirement. Once they got it and it was a good rating they were happy to display it prominently n their wall.

So again my question to you remains, why would resturants subject themselves to health inspectors if they already know they are doing a good job? Why is it important?


I'm also still waiting on an answer to this:

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As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.


This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2007, 04:37:09 PM »
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and what if the child never feels ready? What if he never feels safe? The TBS's answer is to drop them into a lower peer group, how do you feel those kids should be dealt with?

If the child never feels ready, which happens, then the family, therapists and school need to get together and define further steps.

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So then with that in mind my question to you remains. Why do you continue to dismiss and downplay the claims of abuse people make against these places?

You posted a few of my past quotes, but I don?t see how this is dismissing or downplay peoples claims they were abused.  

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So again my question to you remains, why would resturants subject themselves to health inspectors if they already know they are doing a good job? Why is it important?

Well, I think it is because they are forced to because if they don?t the Health department will put a lock on their door and a sign, which isn?t good for business.

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As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.


This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.


When a child is abused or a teacher hits a student this becomes a huge issue in the area I live in and heads start rolling even before there is any court time.  If kids are getting abused we will hear about it.

 Bob -- Do you have any data to add to the dataset?  Do you want to move on to 2002- 2003?
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2007, 04:52:30 PM »
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If the child never feels ready, which happens, then the family, therapists and school need to get together and define further steps.

Such as?

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You posted a few of my past quotes, but I don?t see how this is dismissing or downplay peoples claims they were abused.

Then you werent paying atttention. In the quotes you repeatedly claim the abuse either isnt occuring or isnt as prevalent as we make it out to be. I'm not sure how once can interpret your comments any other way but I'm more than willing to hear an alternative explination if youve got one. If not my orginal question remains.

Why do you continue to downplay and dismiss peoples claims about abuse in these places?

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Well, I think it is because they are forced to because if they don?t the Health department will put a lock on their door and a sign, which isn?t good for business.

But why is it important? Why does the health inspector need to come at all?

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When a child is abused or a teacher hits a student this becomes a huge issue in the area I live in and heads start rolling even before there is any court time. If kids are getting abused we will hear about it.


I see. So then is it your beliefe that if you did not hear about or see something occur it did not happen?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2007, 05:23:20 PM »
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Such as?

Not really sure,specifically, I think it depends on the child.  If the childs therapists feels he/she would benefit by staying longer at the present school in hopes the child will open up and respond then they may go that way.  They could increase the number of therapy hours (one on one), introduce a different method.  Maybe ease up on academics for awhile to give the child more freedom and less pressure to perform at school if that is an issue?..etc.

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Why do you continue to downplay and dismiss peoples claims about abuse in these places?

I think the difficulty you are having with some of my responses is that I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic, whereas many people here do.  The signs just are not there for me.  Sure there have been kids abused.  Kids are abused everywhere kids live and learn, but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.

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But why is it important? Why does the health inspector need to come at all?

Because it is important to the people.  People get sick or food poisoning and some die and they rise up and demand their government regulate the industry.  So it becomes the law and every restaurant that serves food needs to be inspected and their rating needs to be prominently displayed.

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I see. So then is it your beliefe that if you did not hear about or see something occur it did not happen?


No, I don?t believe in all that ?If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound?.?.  But If I told you someone shot the president and you turned on the TV and nothing was being aired about it on the national channels.  I think you may doubt my statement.
   If the news media gets a hold a good story they are not going sit on it.

Bob -- Do you have any data to add to the dataset? Do you want to move on to 2002- 2003?
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2007, 07:57:19 PM »
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Not really sure,specifically, I think it depends on the child. If the childs therapists feels he/she would benefit by staying longer at the present school in hopes the child will open up and respond then they may go that way. They could increase the number of therapy hours (one on one), introduce a different method. Maybe ease up on academics for awhile to give the child more freedom and less pressure to perform at school if that is an issue?..etc.

All of which  do nothing to address the fact that the kid is not ready for therapy.



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I think the difficulty you are having with some of my responses is that I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic whereas many people here do.The signs just are not there for me. Sure there have been kids abused. Kids are abused everywhere kids live and learn, but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.

Cindy pay very close attention to your own words and then answer the following question: Why do you continue to dismiss or down play peoples claims about abuse in these places?

If youre still confused ask yourself how it's possible to both accept peoples statements at face value and doubt the veracity of their statements at the same time.

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Because it is important to the people. People get sick or food poisoning and some die and they rise up and demand their government regulate the industry. So it becomes the law and every restaurant that serves food needs to be inspected and their rating needs to be prominently displayed.

So youre saying that govt regulation can be a good thing for the customers?

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No, I don?t believe in all that ?If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound?.?. But If I told you someone shot the president and you turned on the TV and nothing was being aired about it on the national channels. I think you may doubt my statement.
If the news media gets a hold a good story they are not going sit on it.

The difference is this, you would be hard pressed to find a person of average intelligence in this country who does not know one that we have a President but two who he is. On that same note the majority of people in this country know little to nothing about TBS's if they even know they exist at all. Add that to the fact that these places work very hard at covering up what does go on there and youre left with the end result.

Case in point, throughout our safety discussion I and others have thrown out numerous names of kids who have died in these places. Prior to this discussion had you ever heard of any of them?

Oh and...
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but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.



You dont know this to be true at all, this would be evidence of you reaching a concluscion before all the data has been examined. Proof of your agenda.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2007, 08:34:14 PM »
I guess I continue to answer all of your questions, but you wont reciprocate.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2007, 10:31:37 PM »
I guess so. Move on to another year if you want.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2007, 10:49:26 PM »
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I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic whereas many people here do.The signs just are not there for me.

I am not saying abuse doesn?t exist, I am saying it isn?t out of whack with the rest of the world.

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So youre saying that govt regulation can be a good thing for the customers?

Yes it definitely can be if adequately funded for both sides and implemented slowly and properly.

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but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.


I guess I should have said, ?From what I have seen, thus far??,  it is my opinion??..?
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2007, 11:20:24 PM »
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I am not saying abuse doesn?t exist, I am saying it isn?t out of whack with the rest of the world.

So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????

Of course this contridicts your earlier comment that if the abuse was really as prevalent as we make it out to be it would be on the news. You cant have it both ways.

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Yes it definitely can be if adequately funded for both sides and implemented slowly and properly.

Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?

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but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.


I guess I should have said, ?From what I have seen, thus far??, it is my opinion??..?


Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2007, 11:47:04 PM »
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So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????

Hmmm.  Not sure I said that.  You keep wanting me to say I dismiss abuse when I don?t.  Abuse occurs, all over and we need to get rid of it..  I think what we need to establish is where kids can be the safest from being abused.  I think TBS?s are a safe place, I think some public schools are less safe.  I believe some of the numbers are supporting this assertion.
You may have a different point of view, Bob, It doesn?t make you intrinsically wrong, we are just looking at it from different angles.  I could accuse you of not seeing it my way and dismissing the fact that the public school systems are always in the news with stories of teachers raping students and shootings etc. and you dismiss the fact that TBS?s are never in the news.  But I don?t work that way and I don?t think that is a true reflection on a persons beliefs

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Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?

Too much time,  should have been done in 3 years tops.  Look at how quickly it took to get regulation on the food industry.

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Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.


Based on some preliminary numbers we are seeing.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2007, 05:36:04 AM »
But Who you continually dismiss abuse. Here are some occasions thus far.
-You have no problem with ASRs policy of having kids carry "symbolic" rocks as featured in What it takes....
-You are OK with coerced therapy even if it ends with students weeping in the foetal position on the floor
-You dont see that if a program is a profit making venture it should have any regulatory oversite because it is a law unto itself. This is an environment which by its nature encurages abuse to flourish.
-You have no problem with Escorts being employed to take terrified kids in the middle of the night
-You are ok with incarceration without trial or medical evidence of a mental illness so severe that the child and community are at risk
-You see no problem with strip searches or a wilderness programme which drastically limits food intake while forcing hardcore excercise
-You see no problem with a girl who is anorexic and possibly still detoxing from a cocktail of drugs going on this.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2007, 09:19:24 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
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The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.

So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.

I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments.  I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?.  If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help.  Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed.  The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a  place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track.  There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step.  The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.

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Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.

HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.

So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.

OK?

No, I am not.  The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push.  How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track.  Some parents will goes as far as saying?  You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity?  I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.

As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.


Wow.  I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...

COERCED treatment does not work.  Period.  Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail.  It cannot work and does not work.  Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.

Perpetrators:  Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades.  Example :  Rudy Bentz.  Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year.  Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement.  That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.

This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who.  You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2007, 09:54:07 AM »
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.

So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.

I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments.  I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?.  If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help.  Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed.  The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a  place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track.  There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step.  The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.

Quote
Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.

HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.

So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.

OK?

No, I am not.  The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push.  How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track.  Some parents will goes as far as saying?  You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity?  I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.

As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.

Wow.  I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...

COERCED treatment does not work.  Period.  Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail.  It cannot work and does not work.  Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.

Perpetrators:  Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades.  Example :  Rudy Bentz.  Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year.  Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement.  That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.

This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who.  You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.



Agreed!!  The child needs to be place in the ?Least restrictive environment?,  for some this is a therapists office for others it is a lock down psych or jail.

These TBS?s are not locked down facilities.  You can leave anytime you want.  When the child feels safe and settled in enough to work on his/her issues then the therapy can begin, not before.  These are not my feelings alone, DJ, the schools come highly recommended by therapists, the kids are treated by therapists and work with the childs home support team who are typically (or include) therapists.  If there is ever a concern about the child not getting the proper treatment or abuse is occurring there are many avenues to report it.

As far as abuse goes, sure I have said before and I?ll say it again?..abuse occurs everywhere that children go to school, reside and play.  We can site individual cases in the public and private sector.  The trick is to identify the place that is safest for the child to be.
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