Split from ASR: Private School or RTC

[TheWho]

I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer.  The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason.

None of that can be assumed or proven. One can NOT assume their child will tell them anything about the program after 12-24 months of intense daily conditioning.

Deborah, you watch the news every day like the rest of us.  You seriously believe that these places abuse and rape our kids for decades and no one says anything?  It might be believable if they came home and worshiped the schools like some cult and handed out fliers at the airport, but they don?t.  Most kids do very well but others hated the place, still others may be indifferent and just want to move on, still others didn?t do good.  But what they all have in common is that they were not abused or they would jump at the chance to stick it to their old school or the guy that raped them or show their parents that it wasn?t such a great investment etc.  Of the tens of thousands that graduated you would think some would step forward and expose them.  !00% of these kids (that apply) are accepted into college and most take advantage and move onto very good schools.  With all this education you think these kids, some in government power positions now, would allow this to continue unchecked and unregulated?
I think it was milk that might had mentioned the counselors probably receive the physical and emotion abuse not the kids.

[Oz girl]

Sure this is what happened in the Catholic system for a good 40 years! Not to mention all the Old boys and girls who claimed being belted every day by the jesuits was not abuse. Sound familiar. then sure enough surprise surprise it was discovered that a system which was cloistered and secretive allowed sexual abuse. What a surprise. Oh put this could never happen in a secular "therapeutic" system :rofl:  :rofl:  :roll:

[Deborah]

I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer.  The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason.

None of that can be assumed or proven. One can NOT assume their child will tell them anything about the program after 12-24 months of intense daily conditioning.

Deborah, you watch the news every day like the rest of us.  You seriously believe that these places abuse and rape our kids for decades and no one says anything?

Indeed I do. It's unfortunate these attrocities don't make the nightly news. Most never even make it into the local paper. You might see a TV report on a death, but rare. The day-to-day abuses, rapes? Won't happen.

It might be believable if they came home and worshiped the schools like some cult and handed out fliers at the airport, but they don?t.

Some do, like the young women (grads) I saw posting on a 39 year old male therapist's MySpace account. I looovvveee you, I misss you, I neeeedd you. I'll call you on your cell. Some actually go back as staff after being convinced that the program saved their lives. Actually, I think they want their turn playing sadist with defenseless teens.

But what they all have in common is that they were not abused or they would jump at the chance to stick it to their old school or the guy that raped them or show their parents that it wasn?t such a great investment etc. Of the tens of thousands that graduated you would think some would step forward and expose them.

You're very much out of touch. Lawsuits have been filed, partly responsible for the demise of CEDU. The average minor who exits a program doesn't have the knowledge or resource to persue a lawsuit, and will play hell convincing their parent of what happened inside the program. And unfortunately, there is some number of parents who would actually condone the abuse as long as they received a stepford child in return.

!00% of these kids (that apply) are accepted into college and most take advantage and move onto very good schools.

100%? Cite that. You clearly haven't studied this industry. Read MySpace, read Fornits. Notice how many flunk out of college because the are ill prepared. How many kids exit programs and go directly to college anyway? My son was 5 credits behind his peers when he returned from his 'college prep' TBS. Had to attend summer school in order to graduate with his class. Hey, in case you haven't heard, damn near anyone can go to college these days. Just read recently that there are kids without a diploma or GED getting in.

With all this education you think these kids, some in government power positions now, would allow this to continue unchecked and unregulated?

You sh0uld spend more time reading here and less time typing about things you know nothing about. There are a few who post here who are persuing a degree in the legal field and hope to use that education against the industry.

[Troll Control]

TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?

Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who?  THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL.  This is the part you're missing.

[TheWho]

TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?

Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who?  THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL.  This is the part you're missing.

I take it you dont know much about ASR.  My daughter called every week, she could tell me then or walk down to the center of town and use the phone at the store.

If they were in wilderness they could call the cops when they get out, it only takes one kid getting raped to shut the place down, even as a minimum for an investigation.

[TheWho]

100%? Cite that. You clearly haven't studied this industry.

??.ASR is proud to be able to state that 100 percentof its students who graduate high school are able to pursue higher education at the college or university of their choice.?

You sh0uld spend more time reading here and less time typing about things you know nothing about. There are a few who post here who are persuing a degree in the legal field and hope to use that education against the industry.

I read quite a bit here, Deborah.  If there are a few here on Fornits, imagine how many are out there in power positions at the height of their careers.  If they felt they were abused, they would have done something decades ago.

[Deborah]

Nice try, but you weren't refering to ASR specifically. You were talking about tens of thousands of kids who've graduated programs. Cite that.

And if ASR says it, it must be true, huh?  :rofl:

[TheWho]

Nice try, but you weren't refering to ASR specifically. You were talking about tens of thousands of kids who've graduated programs. Cite that.

I thought everyone here is of the mindset that all TBS?s are alike?  You mean there could be differences?  Some good some bad?   That seems novel and refreshing for fornits?.okay my bad?.. based on the assumption that not all TBS?s are alike we would have to conclude that some are at 100% and others are lower than that.

And if ASR says it, it must be true, huh?  

You have used their web site many times as reference to support your posts.  Lets not impose a double standard.

[RobertBruce]

Cindy you are using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry. This makes no sense.

No more sense then you using your own limited experience with ASR as a basis for every kid in the school. You have no idea if kids were abused there or not, all you know is that none of the kids you spoke to claimed to be abused.

Nothing more. I think you would find alot less resistiance if you would stop claiming your personal experiences to be the end all thing when it comes to this industry.

For example in your claims that any kids being abused at their respective facility would be able to report the abuse is untrue.

Keep in mind that at HLA and in many similar facilities kids are prevented from talking to their parents on the phone for the first month.

Whatsmore all outgoing communication is monitered and censored. No reports of abuse are allowed to be communicated. During this month the parents are inundated with reports that:

A. Little Johnny is fine

and

B. He will probably tell you he is being abused, don't believe him.

Over and over and over again parents are told this. When the child finally does get to talk to his parents a staffer is standing by to hang up the phone at any hint of "manipulation" or reporting of abuse. Later when the child is allowed to visit his parents, they are told repeatedly again that the child will lie and manipulate and any reports of such should be reported to the staff. Once the parents do so the child is of course punished.

Later on when the child finally escapes either through leaving on his own, being pulled, or graduating, more often then not most of them don't want to even think about what they went through, let alone try and prove that it all happened. You'll find this similar circumstance in many rape victims. They dont want to go through the ordeal of having to reveal what happened to them and face their attacker so they opt for simply letting it go and moving on.


You may scoff at all of this if you choose but remember I suffered at the hands of this industry youre claiming doesnt abuse kids.

I know I was abused.

[Troll Control]

I think you would find alot less resistiance if you would stop claiming your personal experiences to be the end all thing when it comes to this industry.

Well, Robert, this is the nut of it, isn't it?  When someone's ego is SO BIG that they feel like if they don't know something, then that something never was...

TheWho has an absolutely gigantic, yet fragile ego that he needs to stroke every day by one, never ever admitting he was wrong about anything, and two, to belittle anyone who says different.

This is not a "normal" person, Robert.

[TheWho]

You see one problem I struggle with is I hear that all TBS?s are the same and they are all abusive.  Yet when I post my experience with one of the TBS?s I am accused of ?using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry?.?.  If you had a bad experience with HLA I can believe and accept that and they should be exposed.  But I have heard posters indicate time and again about how bad ASR is and this is based on their limited experience with a different school.
I read extensively here and recognize there are differences from school to school, I find it strange that many claim to also read but don?t see this distinction?? anyway??.I Don?t recommend all TBS?s to parents, only the programs I know of, but if you flip that around, people who have knowledge of one TBS here on fornits many times conclude that they are all bad ? this is a double standard.

[Troll Control]

You see one problem I struggle with is I hear that all TBS?s are the same and they are all abusive.  Yet when I post my experience with one of the TBS?s I am accused of ?using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry?.?.  If you had a bad experience with HLA I can believe and accept that and they should be exposed.  But I have heard posters indicate time and again about how bad ASR is and this is based on their limited experience with a different school.
I read extensively here and recognize there are differences from school to school, I find it strange that many claim to also read but don?t see this distinction?? anyway??.I Don?t recommend all TBS?s to parents, only the programs I know of, but if you flip that around, people who have knowledge of one TBS here on fornits many times conclude that they are all bad ? this is a double standard.

I think I can help you with this.  Almost ALL programs are built upon a foundation that has proven to be ineffective at best (i.e. any noticeable changes in the subject are created by the subject, not the program) and damaging at worst.  These programs share one ideology and it is deeply, deeply flawed.

The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT.  All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT.  So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.

So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.

Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of  allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed.  You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.

HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.

So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE!  The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.

OK?

[RobertBruce]

I agree that we shouldnt use generalizations but I think if you read a little closer youll find that they arent quite as prevalent on here as you think.

For example you claim that many posters on here state that all TBS's are abusive. I agree that some do but I think more often than not what youll find is that rather than stating every TBS abuses kids people state that the methods, specifically coercive therapy used by (so far as I know) all TBS's are in fact abusive.


Now more of a concern then generalizations I think is you once again discounting peoples experiences.

Why do you continue to do this? Simply because you didnt hear about something in no way suggest it never occured. A great many things happen in the world that arent mentioned on the 6 o'clock news. Espically when people are actively trying to cover them up as they do in this industry.


Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?

[TheWho]

The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.

So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.

I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments.  I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?.  If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help.  Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed.  The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a  place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track.  There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step.  The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.

Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.

HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.

So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.

OK?

No, I am not.  The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push.  How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track.  Some parents will goes as far as saying?  You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity?  I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.

As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.

[TheWho]

I agree that we shouldnt use generalizations but I think if you read a little closer youll find that they arent quite as prevalent on here as you think.

For example you claim that many posters on here state that all TBS's are abusive. I agree that some do but I think more often than not what youll find is that rather than stating every TBS abuses kids people state that the methods, specifically coercive therapy used by (so far as I know) all TBS's are in fact abusive.


Now more of a concern then generalizations I think is you once again discounting peoples experiences.
Why do you continue to do this? Simply because you didnt hear about something in no way suggest it never occured. A great many things happen in the world that arent mentioned on the 6 o'clock news. Espically when people are actively trying to cover them up as they do in this industry.

You keep repeating that I dismiss people?s experiences, where did you read this?  If you felt I did at any point, let me know and I will apologize.  I listen to each person that speaks to me and I recognize their experience.

Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?

I didn?t see this as the original topic?  But to answer your question, Yes, I do.

Bob, do you have any people to add (that I might have missed) for 2001 - 2002 data?

You can answer this in the "Thewho"  thread.  Didnt mean to side track the topic