Author Topic: Oz girl teen industry book service  (Read 3910 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2007, 07:44:03 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Thanks, Who- my penis is on fire. I have warts all over my ass and genitalia. Fuck off!  :flame:

So , my removed/posts got lost...I was only giving my opinion, if your too thin skinned to handle people who dont agree with you, you should stay out of the debate.

Quote
Who, the point is they broke this girl and thats just wrong all by it's self?..According to you who any bad outcome can be the result of 100 other reasons except the obvious one


No that is not the point??How can you see this as obvious? How can you assign cause to this?  It appears the girl wasn?t even on campus when this occurred?. Why does the school take the blame?  If the girl was in a mental hospital and then jumped in front of a bus when she got home would the hospital be at fault?  If she was told she would have to go back to school and then harmed herself is it now the public schools fault?  How do you see this as obvious?  This is the mentality here  (If she was told she was to visit her grandmother for 3 weeks and then harmed herself, you would want to hold the grandmothers feet to the fire).  This stood out big time when I first came to fornits, you guys just don?t see it ?its twisted, desperate logic? you want to so desperately find fault with the schools that you assign every problem a child has as caused by the school and if the child did well you chalk it up to natural maturation.
This is why I took on the task of categorizing the data because of attitudes like this.  There needs to be clear definition for each case?if you don?t like the legal system go out and vote or go move in with TSW.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline hanzomon4

  • Posts: 1334
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2007, 08:59:23 PM »
Who the girl was broken down by a system designed to do so. The result of such abuse is not warm happy feelings...

As many survivors have pointed out this therapy causes one to feel worthless and out of touch with the real world. The use of humiliation as a way to break someone down is in keeping with the tactic types of thought reform, and as we know this can and does lead to suicide.  Any problems she had  pre-program most likely  were only exacerbated by her ""treatment" as survivors have stated time and time again.

To believe that this treatment had no part in her apparent suicide attempt is ridiculous considering what survivors have stated and what has been stated by orgs like the APA and the mainline psychiatric community. If you wish to bring to my attention a more likely cause of her mental distress please do, however failing to acknowledge the part ASR's treatment played in this girls suicide attempt will only further your identity as a he/she that is chronically full of shit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2007, 09:28:19 PM »
Quote
however failing to acknowledge the part ASR's treatment played in this girls suicide attempt will only further your identity as a he/she that is chronically full of shit.


You forgot to add "In my opinion".  The treatment, like any other event in this Childs life, had a definite impact, yes I agree.  That impact might have been positive, negative or neutral. But sitting here we don?t know.  Based on my experience and talking with kids that have attended the school I would say ASR had a positive impact on this child, but maybe the child couldn?t be reached or regressed or a new event occured which effected this child.  You are grabbing at straws my friend.........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2007, 05:14:28 PM »
Did you even read this book Who? i had assumed that you did because you recommened it.
Ashley wept while her class mates berated her and was subdued throughout the whole trip back. She then found out she would have to do another 8 months and at this point took off. It took 3 staff to hold her to stop her from running into the traffic and she was hysterical. But beecher and Bentz had no culpability!
There were fifteen kids in the peer group Marcus looked at. lets examine what happened by the end of the book

Trevor-was in for drugs. overdosed on this first weekend out and was eventually expelled for crushing adderal up. But the admissions coordinators decided that they could help him more than a proper rehab in the 1st place
Tanner-Died of an overdose in his flat at 20.
Bianca-Was in ASR because her father did not like the fact that she was sexually active. Got pregnant in her first year of Uni
Phil-Went through entire program and got expelled on last day because he and ashley fucked
Ashley--Ended up in a mental hospital after throwing herself in front of a bus
Maryellen-Dropped out of 1st yr of uni moved to colorado to be a ski bum. At least she got away from those horror plastic parents of hers.
Unnamed girl-Lasted 2 days in initial wilderness programme but it was clear that she was off the charts nuts so got sent home. This did not stop admin coordinators from letting her in tho

And of the kids who were sucessful it should be noted that their loving and kind environment did not always take the opportunity to congratulate them. lets look at Tyrone. This boy did everything right. He got As academically. He showed leadership skills on the Wilderness program. He was friendly to kids who were struggling (His reward was to be put on Friendship bans). the reason why he did this was because he was aware of the enormous financial sacrifice his working class mum had to make to send him and was determined to make her proud. (so much for these kids all  having entilement issues)
 Did his overseers compliment him on being an allround great guy? not Beecher. She didnt like him because he refused to cry and bad mouth his father during therapy. She and Julie both claimed he was just biding his time and had learn nothing. Only his teacher Gennarose who left after a single year and said the only good thing about ASR was the kids complimented his star performance!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5603
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 06:00:10 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
however failing to acknowledge the part ASR's treatment played in this girls suicide attempt will only further your identity as a he/she that is chronically full of shit.

You forgot to add "In my opinion".  The treatment, like any other event in this Childs life, had a definite impact, yes I agree.  That impact might have been positive, negative or neutral. But sitting here we don?t know.

Hey i got an idea.  Why don't a bunch of survivors get together and start a Program for their parents.  Most of em are always whining on about "get over it already"... Maybe we should help them to understand exactly what there was to be upset about.

Quote
Based on my experience and talking with kids that have attended the school I would say ASR had a positive impact on this child, but maybe the child couldn?t be reached or regressed or a new event occured which effected this child.  You are grabbing at straws my friend.........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2007, 08:43:04 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Did you even read this book Who? i had assumed that you did because you recommened it.
Ashley wept while her class mates berated her and was subdued throughout the whole trip back. She then found out she would have to do another 8 months and at this point took off. It took 3 staff to hold her to stop her from running into the traffic and she was hysterical. But beecher and Bentz had no culpability!
There were fifteen kids in the peer group Marcus looked at. lets examine what happened by the end of the book

Trevor-was in for drugs. overdosed on this first weekend out and was eventually expelled for crushing adderal up. But the admissions coordinators decided that they could help him more than a proper rehab in the 1st place
Tanner-Died of an overdose in his flat at 20.
Bianca-Was in ASR because her father did not like the fact that she was sexually active. Got pregnant in her first year of Uni
Phil-Went through entire program and got expelled on last day because he and ashley fucked
Ashley--Ended up in a mental hospital after throwing herself in front of a bus
Maryellen-Dropped out of 1st yr of uni moved to colorado to be a ski bum. At least she got away from those horror plastic parents of hers.
Unnamed girl-Lasted 2 days in initial wilderness programme but it was clear that she was off the charts nuts so got sent home. This did not stop admin coordinators from letting her in tho

And of the kids who were sucessful it should be noted that their loving and kind environment did not always take the opportunity to congratulate them. lets look at Tyrone. This boy did everything right. He got As academically. He showed leadership skills on the Wilderness program. He was friendly to kids who were struggling (His reward was to be put on Friendship bans). the reason why he did this was because he was aware of the enormous financial sacrifice his working class mum had to make to send him and was determined to make her proud. (so much for these kids all  having entilement issues)
 Did his overseers compliment him on being an allround great guy? not Beecher. She didnt like him because he refused to cry and bad mouth his father during therapy. She and Julie both claimed he was just biding his time and had learn nothing. Only his teacher Gennarose who left after a single year and said the only good thing about ASR was the kids complimented his star performance!


But what you dont see yourself doing is taking "one" event that occured in the book and painting the whole school with it, when the event never occured at ASR to begin with.
You are assuming a cause and placing blame,  here is another way to conclude:

Trevor- Almost died of drug overdose prior to attending ASR. Broke the rules and was eventually kicked out.

Tanner-  Eventually reached a bad end ?..  might have died sooner had his parents not seen the signs, intervened and gotten him help.

Bianca-  Struggling who lost her mother to breast cancer when she was 10. Bianca's twin brother and older sister cope with the death as best they can, but Bianca starts on a dangerous downward spiral. She struggles with inner pain after being the victim of numerous sexual traumas and rebels against her father, who cannot seem to relate to her.  She is now doing very well and has moved on with her life

Phil- Did heroin, kicked out of 4 schools prior to ASR.  Did great at ASR learned a lot, broke the rules and was eventually kicked out.

Ashley? regressed after leaving and is still struggling with life.

Maryellen-  Did extremely well and now enjoys a life of skiing.

Unnamed girl-  Came a very long way and is now doing well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2007, 10:02:39 AM »
Quote
Trevor- Almost died of drug overdose prior to attending ASR. Broke the rules and was eventually kicked out.

Tanner- Eventually reached a bad end ?.. might have died sooner had his parents not seen the signs, intervened and gotten him help.

Bianca- Struggling who lost her mother to breast cancer when she was 10. Bianca's twin brother and older sister cope with the death as best they can, but Bianca starts on a dangerous downward spiral. She struggles with inner pain after being the victim of numerous sexual traumas and rebels against her father, who cannot seem to relate to her. She is now doing very well and has moved on with her life

Phil- Did heroin, kicked out of 4 schools prior to ASR. Did great at ASR learned a lot, broke the rules and was eventually kicked out.

Ashley? regressed after leaving and is still struggling with life.

Maryellen- Did extremely well and now enjoys a life of skiing.

Unnamed girl- Came a very long way and is now doing well.


What an appallingly low rate of success. 5 out of 7 didn't benifit from their stay/incarceration at ASR. Guess those much lauded "tools" that ASR drills into the students didn't much help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2007, 10:47:11 AM »
Personally I see your conclusion as a little harsh and too quick to judge and would like to expand on my initial thoughts??.   what I am trying to say is there are going to be an unlimited number of outcomes, long term and short term, for these kids.  One positive or one negative outcome should not be used to label a school or define its effectiveness, but we need to look at outcomes over a longer period of time as a determination.   I believe we can safely say that ASR was able to reach all the kids that finished the program.  If the program wasn?t working for them then the parents were notified and they were sent home, no sense wasting the kid?s time and the parent?s money when there are other kids waiting to attend.

Prior to a childs graduation the school , along with the child?s therapist (support team), recommends the next steps the child should take to continue his or her s success.  This may be as simple as a recommended school/ home environment or as complex as detailed on going treatment.

I guess there are many ways to look at it, but 2 never finished the program so:

Of the graduates:  Tanner, Biance, Ashley, Maryellen, Unnamed.  ASR was able to help them all !! 2 of the 5 regressed after leaving.  The cause is unknown, maybe they didn?t follow up with their individualized treatment.  I don?t think this was talked about?  

We should also note that we are not sure if this is a representative sample of the kids at ASR, just 7 that Oz Girl picked out, there was also :Andy, Eva, Willow, DJ, Tyrone, Mary Alice and others in the book who did well and many others.  If we added just them we would be looking at:

11 of 11 benefited from their stay at ASR and 9 of 11 benefited long term.  I am not placing these on the table as dependable statistics, just indicating that a longer term study would be needed to determine long term effectiveness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2007, 11:59:15 AM »
:o

I was going to sic the PT9K on that but it's way too ridiculous.

I'm going to bookmark the previous post for when parents start asking just how their child will be "helped".

PTSD, total lack of diagnosis, exacerbation of existing problems, all-new problems, and holy shit, this really IS their idea of help!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2007, 04:11:16 PM »
I am saying that ARS was ultimately no help to these students one way or another and in the case of Ashley it played a direct part in sending her over the edge. How do you actually know what happened to the otber students? Particularly the unnamed crazy girl who was kicked out of widerness after 5 minutes? I wouldnt think that even the school knew

It does not surprise me at all that DJ and Tyrone went ok after the school as neither boy was in real trouble to begin with. Tyrone resfused to buy into the bullshit therapy and did gain the advantage of a private education but what is a little sad about his case is that he would get the same benefits from any local small private school which gave individual attention. His mother had not been able to afford such an option and then went with ARS when she felt things has gotten drastic. Lets not forget your hero Beecher dumped shit all over him for not "buying in" in spite of him fololowing every stupid rule, excelling academically anddoing well in Costa Rical. it is as if a kid who learns to think for themself is a pariah. in the case of DJ he did do well in the now abandoned Costa Rica trip ( i wonder what Aspen is doing with all that cash) but not in any other part of the programme. When he started to succeeed they put him on friendship bans and he began to fail again. Imagine how much misery and cost his parents could save by sending him on an outward bound, having him get a hands on part time job, recognising that not every boy is going to go to Harvard and being a little less protective and indulgent!

Tell me who why was 1 single line devoted to the departure of Genna Rose who claimed the only good thing about ARS was the kids.This is interesting because she was also the one who stood up for kids like DJ and Tyrone when everyone else was crictical or in the case of DJ talking about dropping him down a level to milk more money from his family.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 04:25:43 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2007, 04:21:27 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I am saying that ARS was ultimately no help to these students one way or another and in the case of Ashley it played a direct part in sending her over the edge.

That is why the book is out there to spark discussion and opinion.  So you are entitled.

Quote
How do you actually know what happened to the otber students? Particularly the unnamed crazy girl who was kicked out of widerness after 5 minutes? I wouldnt think that even the school knew

I dont, but if an event occurred like one of them being thrown under a bus, it would have been noteworthy enough to mention in the book.  What I take away from the book is that the kids all moved on with there lives and got back on track, except as noted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline hanzomon4

  • Posts: 1334
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2007, 06:38:10 PM »
Oz girl summed it up pretty well....

The book clearly showed that the goal of the therapy was to break the kids. Juile lamented on page 290 saying "I wish we could have cracked her" referring to Bianca. Much(all) of the therapy was ripped straight from the cedu play book. I couldn't help but think about psy's website while I was reading this book.

Ashely's suicide attempt rests solely on the shoulders of ASR. After she confessed to the group about what happened on her home trip they all ripped into her mercilessly. The result she tried to slit her wrist while screaming "I just want to get out of here". It was noted, however, that it was only an "attention-getting" nick.  She was placed on suicide watch but was still allowed to be ripped apart by the group when she admitted to having sex. ASR's answer, keep the girl who tried to kill her self while screaming "I want to get out of here" another 8 months. I think this answers why she trough her self into on coming traffic.

I noticed that Bianca became vicious towards the end confronting anyone she felt was talking "bullshit" and not getting at the "hard truth". Needless to say the staff loved it, in fact they loved anything that ended with someone crying.

The therapy was designed to induce emotional distress(this was even admitted to in the book). If you didn't know the harm this kind of therapy can cause you might think that ASR was a great place. But reading psy's website and hearing from other cedu-like program survivors you know that ASR's therapy is dangerous and ineffective.

The author glossed over the ethical issues regarding forced group therapy where kids  faced intense peer-pressure to spill their deepest darkest "secrets". He never confronted the issue of kids getting ripped apart for admitting to mistakes.  He spins a good yarn but ultimately this book is designed to preach to the choir, and not to confront the serious issues many have with this kind of  coercive therapy. He did question whether or not the program caused any significant change or if the kids just grew up. The statement from the staff about only liking the kids was never expanded upon.  

Psy have you read the book? I would love to here your expert commentaries on it.

On to Come back........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2007, 06:55:01 PM »
It is funny you mentioned it was preaching to the Chior Hanzomon because i actually read it when i first stumbled across this industry and i was actually hoping for something uplifting and hopeful :rofl:  At the time i thought this may point out a school which is loving and fair and genuinely therapeutic. This is why it actually shocked me that marcus seemed to view the more morally bankrupt measures of the school and its philopophy as a good thing.
One thing that struck me as odd when i first began to read was when Tanya came across DJ who was still crying after the intake process. it mentioned that she resisted the urge to reassure and comfort him. This alone was weird because when i was a boarder at a normal school 1st years who would be homesick at first would always be comforted by housemistresses or other staff. There were deliberate activities to try and reassure kids and make them feel comfortable and content.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2007, 07:24:36 PM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Oz girl summed it up pretty well....

The book clearly showed that the goal of the therapy was to break the kids. Juile lamented on page 290 saying "I wish we could have cracked her" referring to Bianca. Much(all) of the therapy was ripped straight from the cedu play book. I couldn't help but think about psy's website while I was reading this book.

Ashely's suicide attempt rests solely on the shoulders of ASR. After she confessed to the group about what happened on her home trip they all ripped into her mercilessly. The result she tried to slit her wrist while screaming "I just want to get out of here". It was noted, however, that it was only an "attention-getting" nick.  She was placed on suicide watch but was still allowed to be ripped apart by the group when she admitted to having sex. ASR's answer, keep the girl who tried to kill her self while screaming "I want to get out of here" another 8 months. I think this answers why she trough her self into on coming traffic.

I noticed that Bianca became vicious towards the end confronting anyone she felt was talking "bullshit" and not getting at the "hard truth". Needless to say the staff loved it, in fact they loved anything that ended with someone crying.

The therapy was designed to induce emotional distress(this was even admitted to in the book). If you didn't know the harm this kind of therapy can cause you might think that ASR was a great place. But reading psy's website and hearing from other cedu-like program survivors you know that ASR's therapy is dangerous and ineffective.

The author glossed over the ethical issues regarding forced group therapy where kids  faced intense peer-pressure to spill their deepest darkest "secrets". He never confronted the issue of kids getting ripped apart for admitting to mistakes.  He spins a good yarn but ultimately this book is designed to preach to the choir, and not to confront the serious issues many have with this kind of  coercive therapy. He did question whether or not the program caused any significant change or if the kids just grew up. The statement from the staff about only liking the kids was never expanded upon.  

Psy have you read the book? I would love to here your expert commentaries on it.

On to Come back........


Well, I am glad you read the book and got something out of it.  The more perspective we can get the better educated we can become on the subject.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Oz girl teen industry book service
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2007, 08:51:42 PM »
The other thing that marcus totally glosses over is the fact that some of the kids got into huge trouble for really minor things which understandably freaked their parents out or that often their parents seemed to miss the point. Zero tolerance is the life blood of this industry

For having a childish tantrum and running away for a grand total of 1 night DJ it transpired spent a week in a mental hospital. Marcus seemed to think it was what he needed even though he had not exhibited any signs of being mentally ill or a violent danger to himslef or the community. his parents also totally flipped out about the fact that he stole their credit card to buy crap on line but it was the offensive t shirts and uncouth music that he purchased and not the fact that he stole which freaked em. Why would they not be more upset about the thieving. This was afterall the antisocial act.

Bianca and the badboy BF were arrested for going to second base and getting 1/2 their gear off in a dark cinema. When they ran out the cops actually bothered to pursue them down the st as if they had comitted some kind of socially dangerous crime. This did not strike either the girls father or the cops as absurdly heavy handed. I wasnt sure whether to be more disturbed by the cops over the top reaction or the fact that this seemed normal in Florida.

Marcus inferred that todays American kids are in more trouble than their predecessors. He missed the mark. They prolly are in more trouble but that is because the adults in their life and fuckknuckles like him are so hysterical in their response to behaviours which used to be treated with some measure of common sense.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen