Author Topic: A Psychologist's View of EST  (Read 2867 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2007, 05:07:12 PM »
Quote from: ""Psy""
You're right.  Both Singer and Ofshe were expert witnesses.

You're right about Fowler.  I was mistaken in earlier when i stated he "doesn't believe brainwashing exists"  His views are as follows:

"In my opinion, ?brain washing?, ?mind control? or ?thought reform? are very dubious
concepts.  There is little evidence to support that they ever take place except in situations
in which extreme coercive pressure is put on a vulnerable person in circumstances of
isolation, deprivation, and mistreatment such as a prisoner of war situation.

...

Landmark Education Corporation Page 4."


He simply calls them "dubious concepts".  In any case, he was invited by Landmark corporation.  Assuming I am right, and Landmark is a cult... would you really put it past them to "pull a fast one"?

Based on his criteria, Germany's people were never brainwashed, or the communists in Russia/China, and those fanatics in the Middle east who want to blow us up.. well they just need to express their feelings better.

You are also correct that the APA did refuse the 1986 Taskforce report.

If you don't like Ofshe or Singer.. ok.  Take a look at what these guys have to say (Haaken, Adams 1983)

I guarantee you will find this one intersting:

Parent's viewpoint on Parent Seminars.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2007, 05:08:30 PM »
That  Mr. Guest...  he is truly a mischievous one... :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2007, 11:41:33 PM »
I find it interesting that someone might take the stand that 'brainwashing' does not exist in light of the recent cases of Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornbeck. Both could have escaped at any time, having both means and opportunity. Psychologists via the media have bent over backwards to say these victims should not be judged, citing the psychological hold the captors had over these individuals.

The existence of cults also demonstrates how charismatic people can use coercive - persuasion to recruit and hold followers. Jonestown, Charles Manson, David Koresh, and the Heaven's Gate cult are all examples.

I grew up in the 1970s when the Krishnas and Moonies where making press with their recruiting and hold tactics. Parents were hiring deprogrammers to kidnap their children out of these organizations.

The so-called human potential movement (est, Lifespring) had their day in court and the courts found them guilty of psychologically damaging participants.

It seems to me that the phenomenon has been well documented and the debate is purely academic (definitions and formalizations).

Like The Who, Anne is a wordsmith that tries to divert the issue away from critical analysis and into rationalizations that are ultimately contradictory. Do programs screen for 'ego strength' whatever that is? Of course not. Someone with a strong ego strength would probably have a more difficult time in a program because their resistance would be stronger and more prolonged.

Programs often list ADHD and depression as things they can fix. Wouldn't these issues preclude the 'sane' or '100%' requirement? Wouldn't teens with these problems be the most vulnerable to the stresses induced by these techniques?

As for psychologists endorsing this, remember that there are psychologists who still back 'rebirthing' therapy for attachment disorder. A degree and license are no guarantee of sound judgement.

Finally, she attacks Margret Singer as thinking 'everything' is brainwashing. Ridiculous.
Quote
A clinician, researcher, and educator, Dr. Singer was the first woman and first clinical psychologist elected president of the American Psychosomatic Society. She has been honored by the American Psychiatric Association, American College of Psychiatrists, Mental Health Association, American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, National Institute of Mental Health, American Family Therapy Association, and many others. She is a professor emeritus in psychology of the University of California, Berkeley.


She seems pretty sound to me. Keep in mind that her detractors most often come from the organizations accused of using the methods in question.

http://www.religio.de/server/statement.html

Finally, the fact that Anne endorses the Forum (I have attended a Forum event) reduces her credibility in my opinion. My friends and I who attended the Forum joked about our 'cult' experience. We never bought into it. We took it in as bad theater and dismissed it as soon as we left as being the most idiotic event we ever witnessed. We considered it a scam. We still do.

If Anne buys the Forum, she has sipped Kool-Aid and is only parroting the party line.

Psy, don't give these people the benefit of the doubt, they are good at talking in the same way duplicitous politicians are. There ideas have no credibility and are scientifically unsound.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2007, 11:55:54 PM »
Think you can get ME unbanned if I promise to take a truly Mr.Spock-ish approach to it?

I can turn all of my emotions off, but it does mean I'd be a bit robottish. However, in no way will I ever bend THE TRUTH or butter anyone up...

... sooo probably not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Deborah

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A Psychologist's View of EST
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2007, 12:05:48 AM »
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Psy, don't give these people the benefit of the doubt, they are good at talking in the same way duplicitous politicians are. There ideas have no credibility and are scientifically unsound.


Yes, and this industry has its roots deeply planted in Synanon, CEDU, est/Lifespring. The debate on this issue might end if program disclosed this to parents. What about the unsuspecting christian parent who thinks they are sending their kid to a safe warehouse to get some traditonal evidence-based therapy and instead their kid is brainwashed with some experimental, new-agey, bullshit, confrontational, humiliating mind fuck techniques? No two ways about it, it's deceptive. This needs to be disclosed. Otherwise it's a case of fraud.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline psy

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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2007, 12:24:52 AM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Psy, don't give these people the benefit of the doubt, they are good at talking in the same way duplicitous politicians are.

It works both ways :wink:

Quote
Yes, and this industry has its roots deeply planted in Synanon, CEDU, est/Lifespring. The debate on this issue might end if program disclosed this to parents.

Why do you think i am discussing it.

Quote
What about the unsuspecting christian parent

b  i  n  g  o

Quote
who thinks they are sending their kid to a safe warehouse to get some traditonal evidence-based therapy and instead their kid is brainwashed with some experimental, new-agey, bullshit, confrontational, humiliating mind fuck techniques? No two ways about it, it's deceptive. This needs to be disclosed. Otherwise it's a case of fraud.


My my!  I think you're onto something :wink:

My goal: show the parents the truth.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 12:26:10 AM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2007, 12:25:45 AM »
Just watch out that you don't fall behind in your rimjob quota to keep Lon happy on his forum there Psy  :roll:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2007, 12:36:06 AM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Just watch out that you don't fall behind in your rimjob quota to keep Lon happy on his forum there Psy  :roll:


the deleted data will be re-added at a later date now that niles "gets it"
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 12:47:23 AM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2007, 12:36:57 AM »
Well, damn.

Grats at making him damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

We've been waiting on someone like you to come along :em:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2007, 01:17:04 AM »
Quote from: ""Anne""
Not at all, Overlordd, how could any living person drown you out?

Although psy can be a bit of a tidal wave.

Sometimes he reminds me of the genie (I think it's a Robin Williams voiceover, isn't it?) in Walt Disney's Aladdin that my kids used to watch when they were little. You know, he's here, he's there, he's going really, really fast sometimes.  

But why not, if you can pull it off.

His comments have undeniable value (hope you're not offended, psy, if you happen to read this--do forgive me, just the expansive kind of observation one sometimes makes after having survived a long, long day).  

Overlordd, now to the philosophical points raised in your last post:

You mention that you tend to be absolutist, closed minded and legalistic in your outlook.

Wouldn't you consider these to be admirable values in many situations, I mean, aren't they the values, in some form, that contribute to the kind of focus that allows for the essential existence of complex societies and orderly social living?

But of course, aren't they also values that can be carried too far, ie, be held too rigidly.

Isn't your challenge to sometimes modulate these very admirable values a bit, because in everyday life, compromise and consensus are also important?  Simply because everyone doesn't see the world just as you do, --and still you have to share the world with them! Common ground.

As a bit of self-disclosure, my own natural predilection is to be more ambivalent, able to get caught up in every aspect of an issue, perhaps less able to adhere easily to a particular point of view in the face of confrontation.  

So my challenge, almost a mirror image of the one I think you face, is to be a little more rigid sometimes.

At least in my view, life really happens on a continuum, involved in a constant process of trying to understand when to give and when to remain static.

And to make it even less finite, the balance that is needed changes with time and is different for every living person.

Does any of that resonate with how you view the world and its challenges?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2007, 01:18:18 AM »
Quote from: ""Psy""
I remember that Genie.  I loved that movie.  As for my speed... well I've argued all this before, i've also done all the research, and I type fast... so it's really no biggie.

Oh heck no.  I'm not offended.  Now if somebody were to put me in the middle of a group of say... 50 people and yell at me every day.. then i might be offended.

Regarding Overlords morality...  Anne. Wound you aggree with this statement: "there is no right and wrong.. there is only what works and what doens't"

Get it?

You say you are "perhaps less able to adhere easily to a particular point of view in the face of confrontation."

confrontation....  where have i heard that word before...

Now imagine you are in the middle of a room, alone, sitting in a chair, surrounded by upwards of 50 people.  Now imagine people, egged on by a leader, and rewarded for being harsh, are insisting something about you... something you know to be false.  Imagine they are insisting you are false...  Now imagine you are not allowed to defend yourself.  How many days would it take for you to concede... if that would only end it...  how many days would it take before you started to believe?

I know the answer.

My advice:  Follow your conscience, and check it with reason... adhere to that and do not waver.  Conscience is the compass, reason is the map.  Even if Overlordd has not yet thought out why certain things are wrong in terms of logic and reason, he is right to follow the one guide he has.

Compromise is fine as long as jurisdiction is valid.  You are referring to bargaining with behavior... tangible concessions, not values.  I have no right to bargain for your values, nor you for mine.  How valuable are your values?  Would you trust another person to make them for you if you could not justify them with reason?

confrontation... is a funny thing in that respect
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2007, 01:43:32 AM »
Quote from: ""Anne""
As you know, psy, I haven't yet been to the Forum, but I get the impression that this "right and wrong" thing references to some Forum-related-exercises which, by the way, I look forward to.

Based on my research on the Forum, the idea of "suspending judgment" (ie setting aside what is "right" and "wrong") is only an exercise, in order to see how you feel, outside of your daily value system.

That's not terribly scary to me--it's just a way of looking at something that might be obscure or in the shadows otherwise, I mean, I can bring my own original values back anytime I wish.

Or incorporate something new if I wish.

As to the confrontation issue, and the "50 people": there are different ways to look at that one too.  

Being frightened by such a scenario is not what I meant by having to be a little more "rigid" in terms of holding to a position".  

People yelling at me isn't a particular bother, my own personal quandry is that it's just pretty easy to see both sides of any given coin and to be swayed, unless I focus on holding true to chosen core beliefs.

Another thing that occurs to me, personally, in terms of your "50 people" scenario is the years, long, long ago, that I spent as a teenager, in a quite strict religious school, where people tried in convince me of certain points of view every single day.

I knew, in that context, that many of the things I was hearing were way, way off base, in terms of how I looked at the world.  So I just, for  the most part, kept my head down and kept on going.

Yet another way of looking at that "50 people" situation might be that something you could possible be hearing from these people might be insightful or helpful, even if the format really, really irked you.  

I don't know the specifics in your particular case, certainly I wasn't there, but at least sometimes, kids who get sent to TBS or wilderness are doing some pretty self-destructive things.  

So I guess that I would have to say that the "50 people" yelling might be good in some contexts and just something to be gotten through in others.

I simply can't blame parents who are doing their best, whatever approach they decide to take. One approach for a parent is to just let the whole scenario play itself out, risk or no risk.

Another approach is to confront certain behaviors, sometimes by away-from-home options, I think that is what these kinds of groups, raps or whatever are aimed at.

Maybe you think they're clumsy. Maybe you have a better way to get through to kids in the kinds of mindstates that we're discussing.

And just touching on your discussion of "values"-- have you considered that being able to compromise in certain contexts IS a value?  Our particular culture focuses so much on "standing up" for something, that we sometimes forget the value of being able to fall back, when it leads to consensus and doesnt't threaten really core values.  

Just a thought!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2007, 01:47:10 AM »
Can you please explain why you are reposting this mindless programmie crap?

Don't we get quite enough of this from TheWho?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2007, 01:51:57 AM »
In PS, kids speak ebonics.
In TBS, kids speak emotionally-accountable George W Bush's English

In PS, milk comes in bags
In TBS, they are taught milk is a priviladge and not a right

In PS, students sometimes sleep with teachers for grades
In TBS, studesnta re punished for seducing teachers, but it is not abusive

In PS Kids can curse and speak harshly
In TBS Kids are put on bans for speaking when not spoken to

PS has a magnet program
TBS has an electric program

Who needs thewho? we can always imitate him.
We NEED thewho, without him we would never have the devils advocate!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2007, 01:58:57 AM »
PS sucks shit
TBS, from all credible reports, makes PS look like fucking fairyland

In PS gargling your milk will get you laughed at
In TBS gargling your milk will get you killed

In PS your diploma is still worth something to somebody
In TBS it probably isn't

In PS the perverts get run out of the system
In TBS the perverts RUN THE SYSTEM

In PS.. oh fuck it. That whole topic, and this whole topic, is shit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »