Author Topic: Ten Best Suicide Methods  (Read 16576 times)

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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2007, 11:31:00 AM »
It sounds more like a cry for help than a serious attempt. I think you and your friends did the right thing by trying to help. Maybe a person does have the right to end their own life. Maybe we also have the right to help them survive the attempt, if only for our own sake.

What about when that 'help' means keeping a person in restraints to physically prevent them from killing themselves. At that point, have we gone too far?

Does anyone think that we should keep a person alive at all costs like this?
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2007, 11:39:33 AM »
I found some websites that say, yes, suicide is a sin. Taking your own life is considered the same as murder.

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LV ... deASin.htm

http://www.thercg.org/questions/p080.a.html

http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4.php?id=681
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2007, 11:41:07 AM »
I wuld have called, but restraints? No.  I'm with Virginia Wolf on this one.  I thinkpeople should stop criminalizing suicide

Also, the thing that sucks, is that some don't do it for attention, but probably were desperate for understanding and support at one point.  But would never ask for help so they can forever be treated as some fragile lunatic by family and friends.  If I considered suicide, I wouldn't tell anyone for just that reason.  I couldn't take the indignity of that.
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Offline Anonymous

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Sin?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2007, 11:50:55 AM »
AA: Good stuff, but as a secular I guess none it resonates. Nothing is compelling enough and at least two sites seem more judgmental than helpful which is why the church turns me off.

But now  I see how they justify it as a sin.  I don't agree, but I see where they point justify their argument.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2007, 12:45:04 PM »
The last link I posted has an entire section on youth suicide. I just spent the past half hour reading through some it. Some of it is pretty good material from an academic perspective.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2007, 11:56:55 PM »
The problem with suicide is twofold.

One, you'll never know what could have happened in this life... and few people are in such dire straights its better to die than to not die.

Secondly, if you fail, you're FUCKED... and you'll be wishing you were dead but unable to die stuck in an institution forever.

That alone is enough to keep me from considering it  :-?
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2007, 07:45:35 AM »
Good point Niles ... I had a male friend in high school who attempted suicide and failed.  It left him paralyzed and slightly mentally/physically impaired.   His impairment is awful ... he is cognizant enough to understand his condition.  He remembers what life was like before his suicide.  He is caught in some terrible place where he is helpless ... and helpless to escape.

I know the Catholic church did categorize suicide as a mortal sin ... but there is much that Catholics ascribe to that is not necessarily Biblical (IE: divorce making one ineligible for the sacraments or remarriage in the church).  I don't see anywhere in the Bible that there is any one sin that condemns us to hell.  By my reading all sins are forgivable.  That's the message of Christ.  

Ant~ I am glad you have considered the devastation that suicide leaves behind for children.  But, I would encourage you to further consider that ALL who are close to a person  who chooses suicide suffer greatly.  Adult children, parents, spouses, friends.  There is a tremendous sense of "didn't he love me enough to want to stay alive?".  And while in most adult's intellect they are able to recognize that it is about the victim's emotional/physical pain and suffering that are at the root of such a choice, there is still a very real sense of guilt, shame and overwhelming loss.  Especially in cases where a suicide note is left that points fingers ...

We've all heard the old adage (ad-nauseum I'm sure) that suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.  That is true for the victim ... but for those who love the victim the solution really is permanent.

To "outlaw" suicide is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.  And I don't know of a single instance where a person was held legally accountable for a suicide attempt.  How counterproductive.    Bear in mind that there are still laws in many states that prohibit fellatio.  Yeah ... like that practical and enforced.   :-?   Amounts to the same attempt at controlling human behavior.

Life can get better.  It takes work ... and lots of support.  But there is always hope ...
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Offline Ganja

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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2007, 07:53:04 AM »
Quote from: ""Truth Searcher""
Good point Niles ... I had a male friend in high school who attempted suicide and failed.  It left him paralyzed and slightly mentally/physically impaired.   His impairment is awful ... he is cognizant enough to understand his condition.  He remembers what life was like before his suicide.  He is caught in some terrible place where he is helpless ... and helpless to escape.

And it is situations just like this one that reinforce the notion that suicide should be "safe", legal, and up to the individual.
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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2007, 08:53:32 AM »
Perhaps it should be "safe" (what an oxymoron huh?), legal and up to the individual ... but the problem lies therein.  The individual who is making the decision is usually not in a decision making capacity.  

Ever lived with a depressed person?  They oft can't decide what jeans to pull on ... let alone a decision regarding whether to breathe or not breathe.

Most people who get past the suicide ideation are glad that they did.  Emotions are temporary ... and it is my belief that as family ... friends ... clergy ... professional mental health care givers ... that it is our responsibility to help depressed mentally ill people over that hump ... whenever it is in our power to do so.

If my family member is so sick with the flu that they want to lay in bed and dehydrate I feel it is my responsibility to force fluids ... to provide whatever relief I can.  That may entail a trip to the doctor for meds.  It may even entail a trip to the ER for acute care.  Perhaps a hospitalization to get my loved one back on track.  Although over simplistic ... this is sort of how I see suicide prevention.

Ultimately, my family member has to decide to get  better ... or not.  But, we who are well are responsible to those who are not.
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2007, 01:17:42 PM »
The legality issue is one of Religion and Capitalism? We need separation of church and state and the end of corp welfare.

Proposed Death with Dignity Bill Creates Deep Division
by Taylor Reed, The Caledonian-Record, St. Johnsbury, VT, 1/13/2005

Supporters of a proposed Death with Dignity bill are holding their breath, hoping the House will vote on it this year.

Last year lawmakers passed over the proposal.

"In my hand basket, one of the choices I want is to be able to end (my life)," said Pat Burnham of Waterford.

Burnham is a passionate supporter and a drafter of the proposed bill. She thinks it will be resubmitted to the House next week.

Burnham is a director on the Dartmouth Hitchcock Alliance Board and a member and former chairwoman of the Northeastern Vermont Regional Hospital Board of Trustees. Burnham has also written a book, "Life's Third Act: Taking Control of Your Mature Years," and teaches elder policy at the University of Vermont as an adjunct professor.

She has spent countless hours in the Statehouse lobbying for such senior citizen issues as rising prescription costs. Her focus, she said, has always been on improving health care. Burnham believes ending one's own life, in a terminal situation, is a right people should have in order to avoid unnecessary suffering.

"The question is, 'Don't I have a right to have this choice?'" Burnham said.

If a patient chooses to die under the proposed bill, he or she must go through a long process. The patient, Burnham said, must be sane and make the decision on his or her own.

Jim Newell, Vermont End of Life Choices treasurer, said patients approved for death would be given a drug to take on their own that would kill them.

Newell said patients can gather loved ones around them before taking the pill, and have some control over the process.

Newell adamantly objects to the term "physician-assisted suicide."

Burnham also objects to the term. She said physician-assisted suicide was a label created by the opposition.

"It is patient-controlled, physician-assisted death," Burnham said in response.

The term suicide, she contends, is a legal one and connotes somebody illegally taking their own life. Under the proposed bill, taking a death pill would not be illegal nor considered suicide for insurance purposes.

Aside from the shoving of religious values onto others, isn't this largely what the opposition is about? Money? Insurance? I own my body and should have the right to end my life when I choose. What is ethical or just about someone else imposing their values on MY life? As far as insurance... hell, we're all gonna die, just a matter of time. What gives the insurance companies the right to withhold the money I paid them for death benefits if I choose to end my mental/physical suffering before my body gives out? Are they more concerned about loosing a paying customer? Should there be a law to protect that?

Some in the local religious community strongly disagree with supporters of the bill.

"It's part of the continuing erosion of the value of life in our society," said the Rev. Joel Battaglia of Lyndon Bible Church.

I'd like to hear the good Rev's take on the "value" of the bazillion lives taken in the name of religion.

In Battaglia's mind, death with dignity is a nice way of saying committing suicide. He said murder is against the Ten Commandments and suicide is the murder of oneself.

That's not the issue. The issue is that this country is not supposed to be ruled by the 10 Commandments.

Associate Pastor Michael Murray of New Beginnings in St. Johnsbury said there is nothing dignified about suicide. Murray recently watched a sick parishioner die in agony and said that was real dignity - it was natural.

And, may he also die in gut-wrenching dignified agony as well. What's all the fuss? Where's the separation of church and state? No one will force Murray or anyone else to commit suicide. How will THEIR actions directly impact him? They won't. Control freaks. Was wiping out whole civilizations, raping and pillaging, "dignified"? Hell, it's not even "civilized". And what of the death penalty? "Dignified"? Their lives have no "value"? Correct, they aren't consumers.

Pastor Paul Essof of Newport lost his wife to liver and pancreatic cancer three years ago. The doctors, he said, could never control her pain.
Speaking for his wife, Essof said, she would have never killed herself to avoid the pain, even if it was legal. Essof feels the same way.

That's all well and good, and just as it should be. So, get about living your values and leave others alone. My how religious people love their pain and suffering paradigm. Sadistic. It's like they stopped growing socially/emotionally at 2 years of age.

Oregon is only state that allows terminal patients to end their lives.
State Sen. Julius Canns, R-Caledonia, said Oregon has been "plugging Vermont because it is the easiest state to turn on" regarding such issues.

"I'm not real enthused about it because the people aren't real enthused about it," Canns said of the proposed bill. He said the vast majority of constituents he has heard from are against it, as well as doctors with whom he has talked. Canns said he has not made a decision on the issue.

Sen. Jane Kitchel, D-Caledonia, is also undecided. She said the state does need to improve end-of-life care, but doesn't know if death with dignity is the proper means.

The State doesn't need to do anything except stay out of people's personal affairs. Stop forcing they personal values on all citizens.

"The opinions are very divided, even in the medical community," Kitchel said. Lawmakers, she said, may not have time to deal with the bill this session. Many state residents hope they do.

According to the Associated Press, a December Zogby International poll found that 78 percent of Vermonters support the legislation.

So, are Cann's constituents the religious right?

The poll was commissioned by two groups that back the bill - Death with Dignity Vermont and End of Life Choices.

Canns said to be wary of the figures due to who commissioned the poll.

Canns will work to defeat this bill to avoid feelings of grief/loss of control. Not very "dignified", Canns. Why are you trying to avoid suffering?

Burnham expects the proposal to at least be delayed while legislators deal with money issues, such as health care.

Newell said the bill has been heavily based on the Oregon Death with Dignity Act, which is seven years old. "In Oregon the major benefits have been the improvement of palliative, end of life care for terminal patients," Newell said. He said only about 150 people have ended their lives in Oregon under the act.

Burnham provided these major provisions for the proposed Vermont Death with Dignity Legislation:

? A written, witnessed request to the physician.
? Request must be voluntary with no evidence of coercion.
? Terminal diagnosis confirmed by two independent physicians.
? Evaluation of mental competency by a mental health professional if recommended by independent physician.
? A 15-day waiting period prior to receiving the requested prescription (for death).
? Revocable by the patient at any time.
? Medication (for death) must be prescribed by the doctor and self-administered by the patient.
? No criminal liability for a physician, family member or caring friend who is present.
? No effect on life insurance.
? Monitoring by the Vermont Department of Health and the Department of Developmental & Mental Health Services.

~~~

Typically, I think people (kids) have a hard time with a parent suiciding because there is no discussion and/or therapy following the event. The issue is taboo and stuffed in the closet, which leaves lots of room for the imagination to go wild. They need to be allowed to grieve (just as with any death/loss) and move on, rather than carrying it around. To talk with someone who is stable enough to help them put things in perspective. There's a reason we're equiped with tear ducts. Talking and crying are the way humans heal from grief and dispair. Hard to do in this religiously dominated culture which supports martyrdom and discourages discussion of taboo issues.

I don't think you should restrain a person who is hopeless unless you're pretty damn confident that you have the skill to genuinely help them regain their hope- desire to live. Short of that, how humane is it to dope them up or ECT them to the point of being a vegetable? What kind of life is that? Again, just saving others from experiencing grief.

And why, exactly, should a person who is in so much emotional/physical pain that they are ready to check out be manipulated to consider other's feelings? That is so selfish.  "Live in utter misery, so I don't have to grieve a loss". Force another to suffer to avoid your own suffering. How "diginified" is that.

If they are to consider others feelings about thier planned death, perhaps they should arrange for it to appear to be an accident. Takes care of the insurance issue too. Accidents pay double. Just don't swerve into oncoming traffic like the young woman did, who left my ex-boss in a wheel chair. There are plenty other objects to slam your car into. No need to take out innocent bystanders.
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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2007, 02:51:30 PM »
I don't know if you have ever experienced death by suicide up close and personal Deborah.  If so, your objectivity is quite remarkable.

Perhaps I am a bit more subjective ...

Quoted by Deborah

Quote
I don't think you should restrain a person who is hopeless unless you're pretty damn confident that you have the skill to genuinely help them regain their hope- desire to live.


I don't think you should restrain a person either.  I said "help".  I am pretty damn confident that emotions pass ... depressive episodes come and go.  The darkness turns to dawn.  They are often able to regain their own hope and desire to live.  

I don't find hanging on to hope for someone ... until they can find their hope again selfish at all.  In fact I think it's selfless.

I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2007, 04:47:07 PM »
I have. And I believe that people's grief and guilt can be aided by talking about it. Crying when that arises. Not having one's emotions suppressed by social conditioning or drugs.

More is needed than "hanging on to hope" for the other person, imo.

Re: restraint, I was responding to AA question- is it ethical to physically restrain.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2007, 09:12:29 PM »
Thinking about the responses above, it occurred to me that we cannot discuss this without considering motive. People consider suicide for many different reasons:

1. To escape the pain of a terminal illness. This is the one form of suicide legal in some places.

2. To escape the pain of clinical depression. This may or may not be treatable by medication. The patient may or may not appreciate the interference of others. One could argue that intervention here is similar to saving the sick person's life by taking them to ER.

3. To escape situational depression. These people see little hope to escape their current situation which is so emotionally taxing that they are willing to kill themselves just to end the pain. Interference in this case, could just mean keeping them alive until the intensity of the emotion wears off.

4. To get even with the living. Kids might threaten to kill themselves so their parents 'will be sorry' for treating them in whatever fashion they are treating them. In this case, suicide is an act of agression. It is a big 'fuck you' to the living or to society. I would expect most these attempts or threats to be bluffs, but some may be serious and once again, intervention is just holding the person until the anger and frustration pass.

5. To escape oppression. This is complicated. Does the convict serving a life sentence attempt suicide as a result of situational depression or as an escape from society's control (could be both). Anyone under incarceration (especially if prolonged or accompanied by abuse) may try suicide as a means of escape. Hey it's one way to get out of a program, if you can pull it off. Someone may consider society itself so oppressive that suicide is the only escape from the oppression of society (read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley).

I think the terminally ill and the person escaping oppression are two situations where the person is making a rational choice guided by free will. Those people who forcibly prevent their suicide are simply oppressors. In my world view, individual rights generally trump society's, so I would say, "Let 'em do it."

When I spoke of restraint, I was not thinking of someone who grabs a person off a ledge or takes the gun away until the moment goes away. I was concerned with long term incarceration involving strait jackets, four point restraints, forced medication, and suicide watches. To me, this in an infringement on a person's free will. This is society oppressing someone with a different world view.

This may sound odd to some, but the person who I think should never be restrained or prevented from suicide is the one making the attempt as the big 'fuck you' to the living or to society. This person is making a statement of their own free will. Forcing this person to live is an act of oppression. This individual's right to determine their own existence trumps the grief of those left behind.[/u]
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2007, 10:53:58 PM »
:tup:  I agree completely.

If you institutionalize someone and flatline them, how have you helped them regain their lust for living? It is oppressive. One of the biggest arguments I had with a professor was in psych when he told the class that the 'solution' for poor people was anti-depressants. Oh lord, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Totally absolves the blatant economic oppression, totally avoids the re-evaluation of all social issues. I told him the best thing they could do was take the meds, sell them, and buy some damn groceries for their kids.

What all those scenarios you presented have in common, to me, is a sense of hopelessness, no light at the end of the tunnel. That the current state of affairs is permanent and won't change.

It takes a very skilled person, in some cases it doesn't require a degree, to help someone restore their hope, their passion. It is conditioned out of us by society, to less or more degress depending on the personality.  In the cases I've had direct experience with the person feels their situation is somehow unique and unusual. That's not the case. They need to know that their situation is not unique, and they aren't different, only the way they perceive their predicament is different.

In one case of suicide in my family, the woman was in so much physical pain following corrective surgery and meds that she felt she had explored all options and was at the end of the line. She couldn't live with the constant physical pain. She was a distant second cousin who I had hung out with in the 70s (the life of the party!!) but lost contact with after a long distance move. When I learned of her suicide I was saddened and wished I'd been close enough to offer other options, but oh well. I wasn't, and feel no blame in that situation.

In the other familial suicide, the woman was a single mom of 4 kids and struggling mightily to support them alone. She had recently remarried, I suspect mostly out of deparation, and the f'in shrinkydink she was seeing told her to quit her job because she'd had an affair with a man of a different race. She was conflicted, as her dad was a staunch racist. Left alone at home to contemplate her situation, under the influence of valium (I believe it was), felling no one understood or cared, shut off from the man she was attracted to, she decided to end it. I was very sad, but our family took her kids into the fold and have loved them well. They survived.

Life is messy. At the very least, we really need to explore our motivation to "help" anyone, and recognise our limitations. It happens that sometimes even the credentialed haven't a clue. When the day is done, we just need to genuinely love them, with no pre-set agenda and ask leading questions that might help them sort out the confusion and despair that has left them in such a life-less state.
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Offline Truth Searcher

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« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2007, 07:07:24 AM »
Ant/Deborah~
Very important distinctions you draw.  

I totally agree that those who are in chronic pain due to a terminal disease should certainly have the right to a dignified ... controlled death.   Although, I must say that in some terminal cases, the medical establishment can be helpful in managing end of life suffering.

My grandfather died of lung cancer a few years back.  Our hospital/hospice was  wonderful.  They basically put him into a "drug coma" in his last days.  He never suffered ... actually he was never really conscious.  It was a blessing.  I don't understand why physicians aren't able (willing?) to do that more often.

The type of suicide that I was referring to (in term of hanging on for a loved one) was more of the situational type. IE: A troubled young adult whose significant other walks out and leaves a person devastated.  I believe that time will make that heartbreak better ... if time and therapy and lots of love and support are given a chance.  

Long term depression is a more complex "situation".  Some do recover from clinical depression once the right med(s) are found.  Some do not and spend their entire lives on the emotional roller coaster.  Good times, OK times and really horrid times.  For those individuals I'm not sure what the correct response is .... as a family member.  It is complicated.  It is confusing.  It is scary.  Just as I wouldn't wish to lose that family member to cancer and would do anything in my power to see them well ... I don't wish to lose this person to depression via suicide.  And I'm the first to admit I'm not as objective as I could/should be due to the proximity of the relationship.

It sucks.  That is about the one thing I am sure of.
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

Deitrich Bonhoeffer