Author Topic: Carlbrook thread Part 2  (Read 19869 times)

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Offline psy

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2007, 01:30:49 AM »
Quote from: ""irvbulldogs72""
I do have a point of contention there. We weren't forbidden to discuss our later workshops with our parents. I wrote a long letter detailing my fourth workshop to my parents, which they confirmed having received and we sort of talked through the experience over the phone.

I have yet to see negative repercussions pulsing through the graduate base, and I'm in at least arm's length contact with a good majority of them, and I could get in touch with a good 70% of the graduates that I knew when I was there, and a good deal that arrived after I graduated. I understand that you are in firm belief of the fact that this is cult behavior and is unethical.....

is anyone doing anything about it? I mean, there are ways, through contact with legislation, dropping tips, CPS hotlines, and all of that, for you to enact change or regulation. And I'm sure that you'd be able to find a great number of graduates who share your opinion, having left, gone through their honeymoon phase, and then had their lives crash/PTSD/whatever is supposed to happen. You're very knowledgeable an you have strong research. Have you inquired to RRI about the cultish behavior of the emotional growth boarding schools. I mean, if they're cult busters.....you'd think they'd want to know, have some insight, or any of that.


Rick Ross already has a few programs...  Since the industry is so large, i doubt it would be feasible to include every single one (maybe groups)... But for the most part, Fornits is the best place for information on the industry, and Rick Ross is just another advocate.

For every person that tries to enact legislation changing things, there are entire organizations such as NATSAP, a program protection racket, doing exactly the opposite.

Take Montana for example

Your questions in that last paragraph would take pages to answer.  We're all doing what we can here....

Finding graduates...  Er..  In my program... There were like 3 of those a year.  Finding those program otherwise finished with... It's difficult... but i'm collecting em slowly.

Clarification... I meant to say that you couldn't mention the details until they went through thier own workshop.
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2007, 01:38:11 AM »
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« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 01:44:54 AM by irvbulldogs72 »
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Offline hanzomon4

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2007, 02:02:25 PM »
Yeah I read the book and the author does give a small post graduate thing but it's all mostly surface. The similarities are beyond the influence of a few staff people. This place(ASR) and Carlbrook are cedu-reduxs. The author doesn't ask to many questions regarding the efficacy of this kind of "treatment" but at the end does show some skepticism about whether or not ASR made any real change in the kids beyond keeping them alive. Staff also make remarks that hints at dissatisfaction with the "school". At the end some staff lamented about not being able to break a student, yet they said nothing about the student they drove to attempt suicide twice.  The author also avoided talking about the girl who attempted suicide while screaming "I want to get out of here" during the post-grad update. After that first suicide attempt she was forced to tell her peer group and parents that she had sex with a boy three times(once in a restroom). The staff made her repeat the program(peer group drop) a few weeks before graduation. That very day she walked off of the grounds and threw her self at a bus(or something). She lived but you don't find out what happened to her.

This whole thing with cedu reminds me of straight. Straight, inc. programs no longer operate with that name but the programs still exist with the same problems. The cedu clones are tougher to crack due to a lack of overt physical abuse. Also the "loaded language" is like trying to understand gibberish for those who never went through the program(isn't that one of the tactic types of thought reform?).

"The harder truth"? Getting called out on your bullshit? Flying under the radar? Journals? The similarities are mind bending!!
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Offline nimdA

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2007, 08:07:43 PM »
In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.

Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.
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Offline try another castle

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2007, 05:58:02 AM »
Quote
TSW and TAC....when/how long did it take for you guys to see things in the strong negative light that you do now. I mean, I know you worked at a facility TSW so you might have a different take on this. But people continually refer to this honeymoon period in which they have nothing but glowing reviews for their program and such, and in trying to objectively reviewing my opinion of Carlbrook, I'm taking into account for the fact that I could, very well, be in that. A little insight into that would be nice.

Sorry for the late reply. I forgot to mark this thread to watch, so I wasn't getting any alerts.

Things are gradual. I exhibited contradictory behavior to my programming the minute I got out, yet in my mind, the program was still fantastic, even though I was doing things that were understood as "part of my death", as CEDU used to say.  So I existed in this contradictory state for about 2 or 3 years, and then my first girlfriend kind of gave me a wake up call when I was going on about how great CEDU was. Had she reached me about a year or so earlier, I would have dismissed her outright, so I was essentially receptive.

So, technically, 3 years for wake up, in my case. After that, years and  years to process and let go of all the resentment, anger and hate. By myself. With no sounding board, no other survivors, no therapy. (I had a therapist for a while, but it never occurred to me to talk with her about CEDU.) Like I was telling silent1 in the CEDU forum, it's like a coma. People don't just wake up out of a coma and  open their eyes and say "mom??" like they do in the movies. When you first wake up, you may not be able to talk, or even be aware of where you are. Your motor skills may be completely shut down, or only marginal. Depending on how severe the coma was, a person could go through weeks to months to years of rehabilitation, gradually regaining their bearings, lucidity and mobility. Sometimes, they never fully recover.

I used to think CEDU was soft-core compared to some of the other stuff I've read about places like WWASPS and Straight, (and in some ways, it is) but then when I came to fornits I read about the state some CEDU survivors are in, and it broke my heart. Others of us, however, are doing fine. Or as fine as can be expected. I don't know what makes one person weather something like that better than another, though. There are just too many variables to account for. Same way one really can't account for how someone will recover from a coma.

Recovering from the program is a cyclic process for me. You come to new understandings years later, after you think you've worked it all out. Then it goes away. Then it comes back. At least for me, that's how it is. This January, I pulled my workshop and full-time notebooks out for the first time since I graduated, to re-read and to show my therapist. It was really the first time I had actually shown what I had written to anyone else. I was surprised I even cared to look at these things again.

As for PTSD, (which I think you mentioned in another post.) I always dismissed the possibility that I had it. But I have symptoms that for the life of me I could never account for... until I realized they didn't manifest themselves until after the program... and then verified with my therapist that they are indeed long term PTSD symptoms.

Quote
In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.

Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.


You know, it really freaks me out this gradual reveal which is happening about CEDU's influence. I always thought it was the obscure little place off in the corner that kept to itself and was routinely dismissed by the anti-TBS advocates because it wasn't huge enough to cause that much of a stir or be that much of an influence. Especially when there were/are places like WWASPS and Straight and the Aspen Schools to contend with.

Surprise surprise. I guess we should have expected more from Synanon's first  bastard child.
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Offline Antigen

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2007, 10:14:03 AM »
Quote from: ""TSW""
In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.

Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.

Same ol'e same ol'e. It's not just the group level staff, either. Typically, program owners get a little more of a shakeup, but most stay in the biz. Very often, they'll just change the name, shuffle the officers and file new paper work. In Orlando, they didn't even shut down for a day. Kids went into Straight, Inc. in the morning and, at some point during the day, were informed that they were thenceforth clients of SAFE. They're zealots like that. That's why going after one program individually at a time is like playing whack a mole. That's why, even though I'm pretty obviously burnt out on discussion and can't really bring myself to fully engage, I'm thrilled to death over how many people are chatting it up w/ ppl from similar programs and how many outlanders are turning up and showing a sustained interest.

Quote
But people continually refer to this honeymoon period in which they have nothing but glowing reviews for their program and such, and in trying to objectively reviewing my opinion of Carlbrook, I'm taking into account for the fact that I could, very well, be in that. A little insight into that would be nice.


The Straight Virginia ppl had a turn of a phrase for coming out of that. They called it really 7th stepping. 7th stepping = graduation from regular program to aftercare. Some people never come out of it. I just talked to my sister the other night. After 30 years, she's still grateful for the psychological abuse we all received from the Seed. So much so that she pretty much threatened to have me locked up as a mental case because I still don't agree with that assessment.
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Offline madgtrist62

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2007, 02:06:30 AM »
i went to carlbrook and many things people say are true i'll share details later rock on.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2009, 07:30:00 PM »
First, disclaimer:  I'm pretty sure I knew Charly's son.   Not extremely well, but better than most there knew him, I think.  He is a good guy, but as Charly said, Carlbrook didn't really get through to him...which was actually very rare.

I graduated from Carlbrook 5 years ago.  I've been thinking about it a bit lately (saw some faculty recently) so I decided to Google it and came across this.  I read the first 5 pages or so of the first thread, and then realized this was all from 2 years ago, but whatever.  I'd still like to respond to a couple of the points I saw being discussed.

- There were some staff/faculty at Carlbrook that I didn't get along with personally, but all of them (the ones I didn't get along with included) were there because they wanted to help people.  Anyone who didn't, or wasn't competent, got fired pretty fast...I was there for 16 months and I can think of two advisors that I saw get fired...one was not competent and only lasted 6 weeks or so.  The other (Mark Dunn) was very competent but Carlbrook wasn't the right fit for him - he was used to a more clinical environment and had a hard time treating us like friends rather than patients.  Many of his students were extremely upset when he left to start a new (and more "hardcore") school.  I guess it might be surprising that that made him a poor fit for Carlbrook, but it's true.  Advisors were there to keep us in line, sure, but their main job seemed to track how we were doing and update our parents on it.  Almost all the time students liked their advisors, and I am still loosely in touch with a few advisors from when I was there, some of whom have moved on themselves.

- Glenn Bender is an unusual man, but he's also bright and extremely kind.  I can understand that some parents might not "get" him, and if you meet him expecting not to like him you might end up not liking him...but once you get to know him he's a great guy.

- I'm a little upset about the insinuations that Tim Brace would abuse people.  The worst I could say about Tim is that he can be a little intimidating because he's got a strong personality...but he would NEVER hurt anyone and it's ridiculous to suggest he would.  He's the heart of Carlbrook and he's really just a wonderful man.  He's like a warm and caring grandpa.  He'd yell at you in group if you did something really stupid/against the rules (like drinking window cleaner to try and get high; yes, people did stuff like that), but it would be because he was disappointed/frustrated that you were impeding your own progress.  It's really hard to describe Tim to someone who hasn't met him, so I'll just say this:  if everyone was a little more like Tim Brace, the world would be a much better place.

- The rest of the board of regents is awesome.  Justin Merritt and Grant Price are the founders of the school, and were Cascade students themselves once.  Justin, at least back when I was there, was in charge of pizza, movies, and getting us into college.  Grant did admissions, and he'd also make time to tell people what jackasses they were when they...well, acted like jackasses.  Kelly Dunbar does admissions now; I didn't know her that well but whenever I talked to her she seemed nice and intelligent.  Andy Coe is one of the smartest people I have ever met, and I don't think I've ever seen him be wrong about anything.  I never felt like I knew him that well, but somehow he seemed to be able to read me like a book.  Jonathan Gurney is an extremely sweet and funny man, and I'm glad he's the Dean of Alumni because it means I still get to talk to him.  John Henson...didn't interact much with students, though I was lucky enough to spend some time with him and he's just a fun guy to hang out with.  Gillan Smith got to Carlbrook after I graduated and I don't really know him.  Pretty much every student liked pretty much every board member (yes, even Grant, who I'll admit can be a bit scary the first time you're in group with him).

- Groups were often (though not always) very aggressive/confrontational, and I was on the receiving end more than once.  Sometimes I deserved it, sometimes I didn't.  I think that in general, aggression in group was appropriate/on target around 90-95% of the time.  Which is, I want to emphasize, not 100%.  It could be very frustrating and stressful, but in most cases it helped people in the long term.

- Workshops were awesome experiences...they were transformative.  It was amazing to see some people go into a workshop and come out a few days later a changed person.  It seems creepy and cultlike when you first get there, but once you go through it yourself you understand.  It's like an emotional cleansing...no one is perfect, and most of us live our lives under layers upon layers of stress and emotional "gunk".  Especially the kind of people who end up at Carlbrook.  Workshops are intense because they peel away those layers, which leaves you feeling emotionally raw for a while but stronger and happier in the long run.  I wouldn't be surprised if there is a very small amount of overlap with brainwashing techniques, but that doesn't make CB workshops brainwashing.  When our parents visited, they would go through truncated versions of the same stuff, and many parents, including my own, found them just as moving and powerful as we did.  And most of those parents were not vulnerable/confused/"messed up"/whatever in the way that we were, so I don't see how 50 of them could have sat in a room and been brainwashed over the course of 3-4 hours.  For what it's worth, my workshop preference ordering was Teneo > Veneratio = Integritas > Animus > Amicitia.  There are something like workshop preference archetypes (in that a lot of people would share my preferences), but they are pretty varied (many people would also have very different preferences, though perhaps similar to each other).

- I was on a program once.  I don't want to compromise my anonymity so I'm going to be a bit vague, but I will say that I was very angry at first, which gave way to confusion, then tentative confidence, and finally things clicked into place for me.  It lasted 5 weeks or so and it was probably the hardest thing I did at Carlbrook but also the most important.  Programs can be unpleasant but they are basically how Carlbrook delivers personalized and focused therapy (as opposed to workshops, which are the same for everyone).  They work, and it's worth being unhappy for a few weeks if it helps you grok something important about yourself.

I'll try and remember to check this thread, so if anyone has questions I'd be happy to answer them, though I mostly know the school as it was 5 years ago as opposed to now.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2009, 07:33:10 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
The other (Mark Dunn) was very competent but Carlbrook wasn't the right fit for him - he was used to a more clinical environment and had a hard time treating us like friends rather than patients.  Many of his students were extremely upset when he left to start a new (and more "hardcore") school.

Sorry, just realized this was a bit unclear.  Mark wasn't the right fit for Carlbrook overall, but many of his students still liked him a lot, including a couple students who were themselves not quite typical Carlbrook students.  So when he left, they were upset.  And what he left to do was start a new school which better fit his style.  Hope that clarifies things.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2009, 07:45:05 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Hopefully this will get moved later into the main thread which is now locked...

So... Let's pick apart the staff shall we...  comments in blue.
Quote from: "Carlbrook Staff Page"
Advising

...........


Last response for now...I don't know all of these advisors, and didn't know any of them extremely well, but I knew a few Amy, Julie, Jen, and Sally.  I wouldn't call any of them unqualified.  Sally in particular is one of the coolest people I've ever met.

Because of the CB demographic/style (less clinical, most kids have emotional issues but not personality disorders) I don't think being a good CB advisor requires a degree in psychology.  It requires being smart and being caring.  A good advisor is like a wise big brother/sister...they're looking out for you and trying to keep you in line, but they're also your friend.
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Offline lil_thespian

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Re: Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2009, 06:59:10 PM »
See this is just what I don't understand... I stumbled upon this thread weeks ago while googling my therapist that I see privately... she is mentioned various times on here... including in some of these most recent posts... I guess I just don't understand how the opinions can differ so drastically about this school... terms ranging from torture- thought reform- abuse- and brainwashing... to- the best experience of my life... and really helped me...

I understand that people often differ in opinions... but this is truly strange. I can't decide whether I believe that my therapist was part of one of the kewlest therapeutic boarding homes on the planet... or whether she was part of some creepy cult like institute...

this is all so very inconsistant.
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