Author Topic: Carlbrook thread Part 2  (Read 20154 times)

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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2007, 02:21:35 PM »
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »
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Offline try another castle

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2007, 10:15:36 PM »
I guess I'm too lazy to do my own homework, but due to the fact that at this point, based on what I've read, Carlbrook is more than just coincidentally identical to 80s era CEDU down to the terminology, the (albeit mostly less rigorous) schedule, the parental visits and correspondence policies, workshops, groups, slogans, the only difference is the inclusion of academics.

Seriously, I'm reading all of this, and going "holy crap." I know that there are similarities between all programs to some extent, but this stuff almost sounds like a CEDU clone school, such as Benchmark and Monarch. Is Carlbrook technically a CEDU clone? Does anyone know?

I'd very much like to know, Irv, did they ever tell you an origin story? Who started Carlbrook? Where the founder or group of founders got their inspiration?

I know that Brace works there, he was my old headmaster, but as far as I know, he *apparently* had no part in actually starting the school, did he? I thought he was simply the dean of students.

BTW, I congratulate you on your success. I went to 80s era RMA, got about a 1250 on my SATs, started college pretty soon after leaving RMA, graduated from Syracuse University with a BFA in painting, and think about the program very differently than you. I feel that I managed to make it in spite of my experience at RMA, as opposed to because of it. There were a lot of things that I had to "unlearn".

In addition, like you, I was the baby of my peer group, and definitely one of the omega wolves of the school. I got sent back through the first workshop while I was in middle school for the same reason you were put on a "program". I was considered to be "flying under the radar" and "not growing."

We have some similarities, it seems, (except that you chose a major in college that was much more sensible than mine.)  :P
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Offline nimdA

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2007, 10:29:45 PM »
Were any of these determinations to put people back in the program made objectively or were they the results of subjective thinking?
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2007, 10:41:36 PM »
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2007, 10:42:25 PM »
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Offline nimdA

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2007, 11:03:19 PM »
For instance... was the restarting of the program done because staff just had this instinctive feeling? Or was it based on tangible measured observed data?
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2007, 11:07:09 PM »
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Offline nimdA

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2007, 12:01:12 AM »
Interesting. I saw several examples of both subjective and attempts at objective at three springs. Neither impressed me in any way shape or form.
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Offline try another castle

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2007, 12:05:25 AM »
Quote from: ""irvbulldogs72""
Quote from: ""try another castle""
I guess I'm too lazy to do my own homework, but due to the fact that at this point, based on what I've read, Carlbrook is more than just coincidentally identical to 80s era CEDU down to the terminology, the (albeit mostly less rigorous) schedule, the parental visits and correspondence policies, workshops, groups, slogans, the only difference is the inclusion of academics.

Seriously, I'm reading all of this, and going "holy crap." I know that there are similarities between all programs to some extent, but this stuff almost sounds like a CEDU clone school, such as Benchmark and Monarch. Is Carlbrook technically a CEDU clone? Does anyone know?

I'd very much like to know, Irv, did they ever tell you an origin story? Who started Carlbrook? Where the founder or group of founders got their inspiration?

I know that Brace works there, he was my old headmaster, but as far as I know, he *apparently* had no part in actually starting the school, did he? I thought he was simply the dean of students.

BTW, I congratulate you on your success. I went to 80s era RMA, got about a 1250 on my SATs, started college pretty soon after leaving RMA, graduated from Syracuse University with a BFA in painting, and think about the program very differently than you. I feel that I managed to make it in spite of my experience at RMA, as opposed to because of it. There were a lot of things that I had to "unlearn".

In addition, like you, I was the baby of my peer group, and definitely one of the omega wolves of the school. I got sent back through the first workshop while I was in middle school for the same reason you were put on a "program". I was considered to be "flying under the radar" and "not growing."

We have some similarities, it seems, (except that you chose a major in college that was much more sensible than mine.)  :P

Heh....origin story? The founding peer class hadn't even graduated by the time I got there. Hell, I feel like I was a small part of the founding legacy.

Origin story, Reader's Digest Version:
Grant Price and Justin Merritt both graduated from Cascade together in the 80's. They were close friends...blah blah. They always told themselves "We can do this better. We need better academics. We need better qualifications. And half of these people are idiots (students and staff). It takes a smart person to understand what the hell we do at TBS-es. And no corporations."

So, 15 or so years later, they went out and tried to grab big names in the industry and started their own school. Gurney, Brace, Bender, Price, and Merritt... they all cooperated in the design of the therapeutic program. So it is technically a Synanon/CEDU/LGAT based program. The debate on the fundamentally abusive nature of that aside, there were no blatant abuses on the part of the staff when I was there.


(Don't tell me, I know. I read like a goddamned brochure. But I can't help that that's the only version that I know.)

The school was founded in 2002. The first graduating class was 2003. I graduated 2004. Carlbrook is YOUNG.

The differences I've seen between this school and others.

More freedoms.
Academics.
Third party intelligence and psychological screening. You had to be smart and you had to have no clinical psychological problems. The school wouldn't take you.
Wilderness prerequisite.
Very nurturing staff. There was a point where I stepped on a lot of toes; pissed off a lot of people. There were no grudges held. And a (possibly false/illusion) sense of actual dialogue between staff and students. Like I've said, if a student though staff was wrong, totally off base, and spoke up, the hammer was not dropped on the student. Unless the student was being a bit delusional. Hell, I know people like that now.

"I'm sick of guys checking me out at the bar."
"Stop dressing like a skank and they will."
"I am not!"
"Babe, when your skirt is the shortest one in the room and you're wearing the only tube top in the middle of November...you're the skankiest girl in the bar."

I dunno...that's my definition of harder truth. I'm opinionated and I'll pipe up.

Never had to repeat a workshop. And I wouldn't say I've had to unlearn things....I've just discarded what I don't need. I have no use for "passion for my life" and I haven't "run shit on myself" in years. There's no little "you're worthless" sentiment in my head anymore. I accept my qualities, alongside my flaws, and those opinions of myself are fairly objective. I've thrown out most of the tools, possibly why they're trickling back to me so slowly. I regard the experience as rough and tough (workshops, and Carlbrook), somewhat like a rite of passage, but something that looking back, I'd rather have gone through there than somewhere where I would've flown off the handle and hurt myself or done something stupid. Was it reprogramming? Yes, I guess it was. But it's better than the shit "programming" I got from my parents at home. We're closer now. Still butt heads on things, but they've toned down the "do this or else" rhetoric and are much more focused on what's going to make me happy.

That's why my father didn't freak out and disown me when I dropped engineering for polisci and essentially had to start college over in my junior year. Well, that, and I'm pulling full student loans now, so there's a lot less coming out of his pocket.

I hope this didn't sound too much like a glowing review of the place.




Interesting. I had no idea Carlbrook spawned from Cascade. (Maybe I am behind the learning curve in not knowing that, though.)

What a web there is, no?

I think it  will be curious within the next ten years to hear from other alumni from that place and see what all of their viewpoints are on Carlbrook.

Do you keep in touch with anyone from your graduating class?


Also, you spoke about it getting "more strict" and that people were "acting out" more and more than when you were there. Do you have any details on that, by any chance?
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Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2007, 12:13:00 AM »
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Offline hanzomon4

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2007, 12:35:40 AM »
Dude have you read the book on ASR called "What it Takes to Pull Me Through". Your descriptions of the workshops are damn near identical to what was in that book. The rock/burden thing the pictures complete with stuffed animals.... Scary to me. I'm not sure if psy linked to the article by Margaret Singer titled: How Thought Reform works :but it may be worth checking out. It won't give much insight into the specifics of your cedu-like(lite?) program but it may give you an idea of the mechanics of thought reform and how it works(duh). If you're wondering about the honeymoon phase it may profit you to look into "regular" cults and cult survivors.

Good questions and answers folks

*watches
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Offline psy

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2007, 12:53:12 AM »
Quote from: ""irvbulldogs72""
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
For instance... was the restarting of the program done because staff just had this instinctive feeling? Or was it based on tangible measured observed data?

Data? No. Observations yes. I sort of replied to your question above.

Unfortunately, and even MHP's will agree, there is no science to therapy. (By science I mean formula. I guess I should have said math.) It's very hard to quantify behavior. Statistical data doesn't really help on a day to day basis that much. I'm sure from your experience at Three Springs, you understand where I'm coming from.


Regardless of what it was called.. "emotional growth" is is not therapy.  It's pseudoscience with a smattering of pop psychology and a heavy dose of new-age philosophy.  And that's the kind description.  Even programs supporters advertise it as "behavior modification" and sing the praises of it's origins in well known cults. (See the prior "out of the sixties" article)

See chart here

To change a person without consent is not ethical.  You admitted that people had to at least pretend to follow the program in order to suceed...  Karen's son did not suceed becuase he refused to compromise his values.  Essentially... What this means, is that a person has to compromise his values (conform to the group) in order to suceed in program.

Moreover, you are forced, at the very least, to re-evaluate your self image (you said you were fake)...  Attacks on self identity... workshops are loaded with examples of that.  It's not blatant.  It's subtle, and it's done in such a manner as to make you think you are guiding the changes.  Yet... you admitted that staff did "guide" your "growth"... Of course they don't blatantly say "you will be this"... It doesn't work.. it backfires.

Think about this... If they had nothign to hide, why did they forbid you from telling your parents (they did this where I was as well).

At Benchmark... You were allowed to discuss the workshops in general with those who had been through (eg... i liked this exercise)...  But mentioning the contents of the workshop to an outsider (such as a parent) was seen as probably the most severe crime you could commit in program.  If my parents had been around for the parent workshop, my mother would probably have caused a huge scene after realizing it's repackaged est...  She has a degree in psychology... she knows it's a cult.  She would most definitely not have approved.

Why do they use these techniques?  Because they produce "results"... They make the participants think they're learning something...  when in reality, it's not only bullshit, but has little or no basis in accepted psychology.  You don't know what you're in for until you get into the workshop.  That, in itself is unethical.  Therapy, in any legitimate form, has no "secrets" kept from the patient.  Furthermore...  in order to suceed in the workshop, you were forced to disclose things that you most likely felt uncomfortable with.  Yes.. Forced.  Group pressure combined with the need to comply to proceed in program.  This builds an artificial sense of trust with those around you.  Is this learning to trust others?  No.  It's fake. It's completely fake.  Its' coerced.  That is not right.  Dragging painful memories out of a person, when they are not ready, can, and does cause serious trauma.  This isn't even to mention the guided imagery, regression, and hypnosis used (on the topic of traumatic childhood experiences)...

No psychologist in the world (except maybe one I can think of) would dare use such techniques on patients.  Their license would be yanked so fast...  And Yet... Unqualified personnel, use such techniques on not just kids, but kids known to already be (and this is their term)... "troubled".

The only way they get away with it, legally, is by not calling it "therapy".  And even then, they often forget that, unless it's in writing.  That is why these schools are known as "Emotional Growth" boarding schools.  They used to be more commonly known as "Behavior Modification Programs"... but as with most cults, change names and terminology often to avoid being pinned down.
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Offline psy

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2007, 01:05:58 AM »
a little more about group pressure (what i meant when I said you were forced to confess)

Quote
Cult members often say to their families and friends, "No one orders me around. I choose to do what I do." Getting members to think that way is one of the manipulations mastered by cult leaders who have become skillful at getting acts carried out through indirection and implication. Accomplishing this task is easier when the member is in an altered state, fatigued, or otherwise anxious or under stress.


Or all three.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline irvbulldogs72

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Carlbrook thread Part 2
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2007, 01:17:36 AM »
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