ST Cluelessness

[exhausted]

Nihilanthic, although I understand why you are so against the programs, I've read enough here to fully understand, and I've only scratched the surface of this site.....You alos have to understand there is always a flip side, having been one of those kids who was 'thrown away' an inconvenience, whatever you want to call it, I am also a parent who spends all day and most the nights in absolute torment with worry as to what's going to happen to my children because of their behaviour, the phone ringing, the door knocking sends me into a state of anxiety you wouldn't belive, because I am so certain that this time they've been hurt or killed - I literally wait for it to happen 24/7, I can honestly say I haven't relaxed for years and years, because I care about my kids

It's not a case of  the kids can't do right for doing wrong, they do do things right, of course they do and I always thank them and make sure they know I've noticed every small thing, but, I only have a limit as to how much I can take, people aren't designed to take 24 hour stress like I do, something will give eventually, this doesn't make my kids the devils spawn, nor does it make me a melodramatic over reacting parent, it makes me human

Although I am willing to tough this out with my kids, I didn't bring them into this world for someone else to take care of them, thats my job, I still need to go out, I still need to have some sort of life and release from the constant aggro that goes round in my head, people end up haviung strokes with stress like I have....what good would I be to my kids then?

We all know here that my 19 yr old is going to HAVE to leave the house before all of us end up in mental institutions, he doesn't want to go, he says it'll screw him up, so do I keep him here and risk everyone's well being? I'm sorry to have to use the word, but he IS manipulating me with emmotional blackmail

I haven't taken any of what you said personally, I am simply speaking as someone who would have had her 3 boys in a program a couple of years back if they were available in this country, thankfully they're not, because I just know I would have done it if the option had been there, I certainly wasn't clued up to how some of these places work a couple fo years ago - to me I'd have slept at night pretty sure in the knowledge I'd done the right thing for all of us, not just me, not just them, but for everyone concerned

I hope this brings some perspective on how it works in the mind of a parent of a child who is way out of control

Thanks for reading

[Anonymous]

Your 19-year-old is a man grown. He has to act like one. Be sure to tell him that, and just say it flat. Remind him that he won't have to put up with you anymore.

Your younger kids are unruly teenagers. There's no miracle cure for this, no super effective therapy that's going to turn them into something else, and the snake oil that your programmie friends on ST have bought into is guaranteed to make things worse.

Also, they are going to respond to what they see you doing. See what I mean when I say you have to accept your boys as what they are, or at least not react to it? The more you freak out about it, the more they're going to react, and the worse things are going to get. Chill out. Laugh about it, even! "I have a pair of unruly teenagers, and it's my business to make sure they don't get themselves fucked up." Forget all the sadistic nonsense about wanting to keep them under tight control or beat them with a cane- I bet you've said something like that in their presence, haven't you? Great way to up the hate meter, that is. That entire train of thinking leads right off a cliff.

They haven't been listening to what you've been saying and they're not going to suddenly start now. But if you can limit yourself to "I don't want to see you getting fucked up on alcohol or drugs and I don't want to see you fail school, and I don't care about the rest of it", and mean it, they might listen to that.

[exhausted]

Milk I tell them that all the time, I'm always teling them how desperately woprried about them I am, because I don't want them to screw up their lives

I don't freak out on them, I ignore the bad behaviour nowadays because I am simply too exhausted to scream at them anymore, but it doesn't stop me worrying like mad 24/7 - they are just children who are putting themselves in an extremely dangerous situation, i am their mother, I am supposed to protect them from doing so

And yes, you are spot on when you say they've heard me say I'm going to beat them with a cane, actually it was a belt, hell I even carried the threat out a couple of times when I was absolutely despairing, I soon gave up on that, it made everyone feel like crap and made no difference whatsoever, so there's no point (see I really do only do honsesty)

Try to understand though that as a parent, I can't just let them go their merry way making other people's lives hell, including their own and sit back and laugh at it, that's not being a parent, it's just hoping they'll eventually grow out of it, i cannot live with myself in a few years time when they are junkies, dossers, in jail, no hoper losers, knowing I just sat back & watched it a happen, all unfold in front of my very eyes and I did nothing to try & stop them?
I don't think they'll thank me much for being so goddamn lazy that I didn't at least try to put them on the straight and narrow

And all kids need rules and boundaries and a certain amount of control, they are simpluy not mature enough to be making decisions that affect the rest of their lives without some guidance, the decisions they're making right now are only going to hinder them in later life and they will resent me for not even trying to face them in a different direction....this is as much about me and how I would feel if anything bad happens as much as how they would feel, I don't aks much for them, just standards, morals and a happy life, which they won't have if I let them continue as they are.

[Anonymous]

they are simpluy not mature enough to be making decisions that affect the rest of their lives without some guidance

Haven't you gotten it through your head yet? Hasn't it been pointed out enough times?

They. Already. Are.

We're talking about kids who are leaving the house for hours, days at a time. They're not fucking coming home until midnight and you're worried about their fucking bedtimes? Exactly how much cognitive dissonance are you experiencing here?

I mean, if you take a pair of unruly, destructive teenagers, where Option A is going out with their friends all night long where they at least have the illusion of supreme independence, and Option B is to come home to you prattling on about standards and morals and worry and treating them like little children, what the fuck do you think they're going to do?! They're openly rejecting you and everything you have to say to them, and you're making it easy for them! And the more you bloody push, the harder they're going to push back, until either you do something irrevocable that's going to turn them against you forever (programs are included in this, but there's other things as well that I'd rather not describe) or you snap like a twig!

Forget what you want! Deal in reality instead!

[Nihilanthic]

Nihilanthic, although I understand why you are so against the programs, I've read enough here to fully understand, and I've only scratched the surface of this site.....You alos have to understand there is always a flip side, having been one of those kids who was 'thrown away' an inconvenience, whatever you want to call it, I am also a parent who spends all day and most the nights in absolute torment with worry as to what's going to happen to my children because of their behaviour, the phone ringing, the door knocking sends me into a state of anxiety you wouldn't belive, because I am so certain that this time they've been hurt or killed - I literally wait for it to happen 24/7, I can honestly say I haven't relaxed for years and years, because I care about my kids

It's not a case of  the kids can't do right for doing wrong, they do do things right, of course they do and I always thank them and make sure they know I've noticed every small thing, but, I only have a limit as to how much I can take, people aren't designed to take 24 hour stress like I do, something will give eventually, this doesn't make my kids the devils spawn, nor does it make me a melodramatic over reacting parent, it makes me human

Although I am willing to tough this out with my kids, I didn't bring them into this world for someone else to take care of them, thats my job, I still need to go out, I still need to have some sort of life and release from the constant aggro that goes round in my head, people end up haviung strokes with stress like I have....what good would I be to my kids then?

We all know here that my 19 yr old is going to HAVE to leave the house before all of us end up in mental institutions, he doesn't want to go, he says it'll screw him up, so do I keep him here and risk everyone's well being? I'm sorry to have to use the word, but he IS manipulating me with emmotional blackmail

I haven't taken any of what you said personally, I am simply speaking as someone who would have had her 3 boys in a program a couple of years back if they were available in this country, thankfully they're not, because I just know I would have done it if the option had been there, I certainly wasn't clued up to how some of these places work a couple fo years ago - to me I'd have slept at night pretty sure in the knowledge I'd done the right thing for all of us, not just me, not just them, but for everyone concerned

I hope this brings some perspective on how it works in the mind of a parent of a child who is way out of control

Thanks for reading

There are two things you need to keep in mind

1. You are the exception. Also, they work by making people THINK they are in your position, when they're not. That would be the 'punch'...

2. If you are as well intended as you say you are, you would have pulled them out before too long when you realized being kept incommunicado is not therapy and there's something wrong if they automatically say your child will lie to get out.

Thats why you're not a program parent, basically. There are ways to get kids in the UK into a program, and if you really wanted to you could have.

And yes, I understand that these programs prey on people emotionally, parents included - but if a grown adult falls for this shit, sends their own offspring somewhere out of contact, and lets them drive a wedge, break trust, and believes in the "dont listen to them dont pull them out its MANIPULATION" bullshit, then they are guilty of negligence, PERIOD.

I understand your defence of yourself but... I'm not "going after parents". I'm going after people who let this happen through negligence or actively do it to children.

[exhausted]

No Milk they are already making decisions about how their futures are affected, but their bad ones, and no they are not mature enough to be making those decisions, as they are quite clearly demonstarting, I don't know what you want me to say here, I won't back down because I can't! I cannot sit back & watch them put themselves and me into an early grave, something bad is going to happen soon, they are way out of their league in what they're getting up to - it cannot continue, my main fear being they are going to end up in jail, jail is no good for kids who have mental problems, some proper help is what's needed

I tell them how much I'm worried because they need to know that they are putting themselves in danger and I will always be here when they are ready to talk to me about their problems, I can't do anything about it if you think that'll push them further away, I don't nag, i just talk with them, not at them, with them, not talking to them is not an option, why do you always pounce on me like it's my fault they're behaving this way all the time? It's not my fault, I am a good mother, I would die for my kids, yet everything I say you're there telling me everything I do is wrong, wel i can sit at their school, down the police sattion and listen to that...I am doing my best! THAT is the reality of my situation....don't ask me not to do whatever it takes to keep them safe from themselves because it won't happen, I'd rather they hated me than go identify their bodies.

Niles, point taken, I understand how manipulative these programs can be, I'm glad I didn't come across one I can send my boys to, because I would have done, but your right in saying that the 1st time they said something bad was going down, i'd have pulled them out of there, i don't believe in not taking kids seriously when they say bad shit's happening, I'd rather get them the hell out and then take it up with whoever....knowing my kids are safe while I fight it out

[Anonymous]

Of course people are going to blame you. Who else is there? I mean properly they should be blaming your kids- they're responsible for their own actions, after all- but as their parent you're going to get blamed simply for lack of alternatives.

I'm not saying "give up", I'm just saying that your approach is completely back-asswards and counterproductive. Have you ever said anything like this to them?

"If you keep bathing your brains in alcohol, I'm not there to save you from the effects, if you keep failing school I can't change your grades, and if you're going to go out partying with yobs all night long, I'm not there to stop you from getting in a car wreck or getting stabbed! It isn't physically possible for me to take care of you all the time, so you're going to have to start acting like adults on your own! Now you can go out and do what you like, because that's what you've been doing anyway, but if you go and get yourselves hurt or killed it's no one's fault but yours!"

You have to accept the fact that they're maturing, or they never fucking will.

Bring them on this forum and I'll talk to them.

Other than that, I'm leaving this thread and this discussion, as I know when a conversation is going nowhere.

[exhausted]

Of course people are going to blame you. Who else is there? I mean properly they should be blaming your kids- they're responsible for their own actions, after all- but as their parent you're going to get blamed simply for lack of alternatives.

I'm not saying "give up", I'm just saying that your approach is completely back-asswards and counterproductive. Have you ever said anything like this to them?

"If you keep bathing your brains in alcohol, I'm not there to save you from the effects, if you keep failing school I can't change your grades, and if you're going to go out partying with yobs all night long, I'm not there to stop you from getting in a car wreck or getting stabbed! It isn't physically possible for me to take care of you all the time, so you're going to have to start acting like adults on your own! Now you can go out and do what you like, because that's what you've been doing anyway, but if you go and get yourselves hurt or killed it's no one's fault but yours!"

You have to accept the fact that they're maturing, or they never fucking will.

Bring them on this forum and I'll talk to them.

Other than that, I'm leaving this thread and this discussion, as I know when a conversation is going nowhere.

Oh yer I've said all that, I think I've said and tried everything there is!!

I have asked them to come speak with people here & explained that lots of you guys have been teens with problems and given a basic outline of wjhat the site is about.....they have said they are willing to talk, however getting them to come in at a time when I don't want to be up all night with them on the computer is quite difficult, the 13 year old is a little apprehensive because his dyslexia is so severe he doesn't like anyone to think he's 'thick' when his speling's wrong or he cant find the right words, so he'll be a little more of a challenge, I just told him to check out what I've written, i don't want to hide any of what I've said to them, and also he'll see how I type too fast for my brain and constantly make spelling mistakes   I will try again this weekend to get them to put their point across, it may even help me to get some insight as to what they're thinking and feeling....

I am now off to watch a documentary about people facing their agoraphobic fears.

[White Cracker Man]

Would now be a good time to tell that I am not a touch typist? I think it might have something to do with the bad hand -eye cordination I have been plagued with all my life. But no one notices unless they are with me when I'm typing.

[exhausted]

Doiesn't matter Michael, as long as your message gets across who cares how it's spelt, no one's going to arrest you over it....my 13 yr old is a computer whizz but he gets so frustrated that it takes him an hour to write one sentence bless him

[Nihilanthic]

the 1st time they said something bad was going down, i'd have pulled them out of there, i don't believe in not taking kids seriously when they say bad shit's happening, I'd rather get them the hell out and then take it up with whoever....knowing my kids are safe while I fight it out

I want that on my wall! Signed by you, preferrably. And send a few copies to Lon W. and Ken K, while you're at it... maybe even a Doctor P!

At any rate, speaking from experience... the best way to get someone to start making decisions is to.. let them make decisions. Tell them to get a fucking job and try their hand at life the way they are, and say if they want to come back and go to college after a few years being broke, (if you are willing to help that is...) that you will.

Personally, my problem with being pushed into college was just that. I needed to get time to spend on ME becuase I had basically gone from being a socially inept elementary/middle/highschool student to the same half-person trying to do college... and it wasn't cutting it. I had zero motivation half the time and I needed to get out, make money, meet people, and LIVE LIFE... not just scribble and toil away for four more years.

Maybe they just need to get out and try it on their own, their way, have actual empowerment and independance (and autonomy) and then when they see how it is being uneducated for themself, they might turn around. When you're the one making the decisions and screwing up all on your own, you'll yourself realize what someone else told you but you couldn't accept long ago. Plus I'm sure they'd rather get a nice cushy office job and rake in money, god knows with that awful tax rate you have so little spending money over there  :lol:

[exhausted]

They're going to have to, they're ot going to doss round here all day sponging off me because they wouldn't listen, they'll have to learn the hard way but whatever it is they do, I will be proud of them if it doesn't involve taking drugs and mugging old ladies to finance it

[Nihilanthic]

Considering the only 'right' decision a lot of programs ever made was the exit plan isolating them from their parents who sent them off in the first place... maybe you should just do that.

Having to do it and learn yourself vs being coersed in some way or told is a HUGE difference!

[exhausted]

I've come to the conclusion that al I can do is guide them, I told them tonight that I cant make them do anything, they have to want to, but once they've fucked up, it's THEIR fuck up, they'd be ruining their lives not mine, so it's up to them to make the decision to make good now before its too late or face the consequences whatever they may be later on in life

Well at least it didn't make them angry for a change, they just said okay, and came told me they love me

[Nihilanthic]

The thing is they can't really permanantly fuck up thier lives unless they do something worth a long prison term or life imprisonment in the UK... and apparently that isn't the easiest thing to do. Now, here, passing a joint can get you what amounts to a life sentance, but I digress.

Let em go be stupid, and they'll eventually settle down! Everyone needs to run wild at some point in their life, right?