Elizabeth Smart and cults...

[Anonymous]

On 2003-03-17 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote: "Mormonism is not a cult.  visit http://www.lds.org   --->  before you judge a group of people or a Church, try investigating about it first.  The faith and prayers of this family has been heard by God.  What happened is a great miracle and it's a proven fact that these people, these mormons have been found worthy in the eyes of God because of their faith, commitment and obedience to His will for them.   One thing that is wrong with people is that sometimes they tend to be so proud and so wise of their knowledge of what they believe is right, they judge and judge but they lack respect for other peoples feelings and true character.  These people who you call a cult are also your brothers and sisters, and your fellow citizens.  Why do you judge them and treat them so bad?  IS it because you know that they are very forgiving and won't fight back?  Maybe that is the reason.  But this is not right and you know it.  You should judge those who have committed crimes and have proven guilty in your cities.  But give them fair judgement, according to what they have done.  Do not judge those who are trying to make this world a better and safe place.  I know many mormon people who done a great job in my community, and they are very honest hardworking people.  They are the best of friends you can ever have in this life. "

Yeah, right!
I've read all about the Angel baloney, oops, Morony.

Yupp, they're a cult, alright.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-03-17 19:18:00, Anonymous wrote: "I agree to what you have said.  All the Mormon prayers have been answered, maybe, on Elizabeth Smart. The local news in the Midwest is saluting the ?news? as a miracle. Without a doubt, God has intervened in behalf of Elizabeth Smart. The fact that she has been found after all these months PROVES that God answers prayers, particularly for Mormons. And it all happened to this wonderful, wealthy Mormon family! Praise the Lord! It was God?s miracle. I know a lot of mormons too and yes, they are very good people. "

Sincere, good, devout?  hmmm maybe!
but, naive, misled, conned, misinformed and even    deluded?  definitely!

Your response (if it's not drippng with irony) convices me even more that Mormonism is a cult

There is no god.  so forget it.

[Anonymous]

Why attack each other's faith, or lack of.
Aren't we more concerned with a kidnapping of a beautiful, loved young woman here? And wasn't she a good example of just how fragile, yet strong we are as humans? I mean, didn't she show her fragility by giving in to her captors (not unlike you and I) in order to survive. And by surviving the horrid circumstances, didn't she prove her inner strength and will to live.
The ones of us who care to pray should do so.
All of us should at least find the decency not to exploit her further by criticizing her family or even her. Duh. so you think any child would choose to go off with a creepy man who cut his way into their bedroom window. Right?

[Anonymous]

The point is, I think, that its the religious fundamentalists, including Mormons -- and I consider all religions to be, essentially cults  --- that got her into that sort of mess to begin with.

The kidnappers themselves were the product of the delusional thinking of the religionists.  
The Straights -- Semblers, Bushes, N. American fundamentalists of all stripes  -- are the ones responsible for the drug war and all the nasty, evil treatment centres that seek to impose their narrow interpretion on us all.  Frankly, I do agree with the  poster who said that there has to be more to this than meets the eye.  Maybe we'll find out at the trial,which may not be for some time.  But if there's a deal, maybe we'll never find out.  The history of scandals and cover-ups of cons by the Mormon Church Elders over the years in Utah has been extensively written about elsewhere.  

It's definitely a cult, but as I said before, as a victim I feel sorry for her.  But she's equally a victim.

atheist.

[Antigen]

I have to agree with you here, Anon. That's why WWASP, fundie christian boarding schools and similar organizations thrive so well in Utah, So. Dakota, Mississippi and other rural areas of the south. Utah can't do anything about the way these places operate because they operate just exactly like the Mormon versions. So they're essentially giving cover and shelter to other abusive, cultish groups in order to protect their own abusive, cultish groups.

See what happens whithout a seperation of church and state?

If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

It seems that some of you are assuming that my original cult reference relates to Elizabeth Smart and her family as possible Mormons, and that Mormons are a cult and are responsible for setting the stage for the kidnap.  This is totally incorrect.  My cult reference relates to Brian David Mitchell and *his* beliefs and behavior.  He is the wacko, not the parents/family.

[Majiktrvls]

There is defintely no separation of church and state in Utah.
No other state that I have lived in has had a "seminary" on the Junior High and High School campuses. These are separate buildings ON the school campus that the kids go to during the school day. LDS students are allowed to take a credit course for attending this "seminary" class. In fact, if they don't choose to take these classes, they are deemed as being "unworthy" in the eyes of the church and risk being persecuted by fellow students, church leaders, parents, etc... Now, I may be stupid here, and I am defintely out of the LDS range, being Buddhist and all, but, I have to tell ya, I do not see any other states offering CHURCH as a school class. The Government is highly republican and is heavily "donated" to by the LDS church. Bought out is more like the word I should use. WE had hell to pay to get the liquor laws changed during the Olympics so that venues and restaurants could sell more than just beer. Recently, the LDS Church bought a huge mall in downtown Salt Lake City. How many other churches own their very own mall?

[Anonymous]

Which was precisely my point .  Yes, the kidnappers are a cult but they were the creation of the cult -- ie the Mormons.
But it took Karl Marx ( of the cult of Communism fame )  to recognize two factors important truths
1.  Religion (is) the opiate of the masses.
2.  "systems" contain the seeds of their own destruction (the dialectic)

The kidnappers were products of the Mormon church and are agents of its destruction.  
Interesting, too, that the thing most feared by the religionists are drugs, since it is the religion itself that has so doped up their capacity for critical thinking.
There is no god.

[Anonymous]

My post copied from thekidsbbs.com:
Thank God she was found. It's amazing enough that she was found alive. What's more amazing is that according to a source in the Salt Lake city police, she first denied that she was Elizabeth Smart and told police she had to keep her sunglasses on due to eye surgery. Even her dad said she had been brainwashed. Here is a tidbit from the Salt Lake Tribune that reminds me of our own ordeal:

"We have no idea what psychological or pressure manipulations he used with her," said Janja Lalich, a sociology professor at California State University, Chico, and author of Captive Hearts, Captive Minds and co-author with Margaret Singer of Cults in Our Midst.
Still, she said, past experiences show that "when you are removed from your normal environment and kept confined in some way, which we know [Elizabeth] must have been at the beginning, you can enter a very distorted reality," said Lalich. "If they are good at what they do, they use a punishment/reward system. It doesn't take much for your reality to shift."

This also happened to Patty Hearst of the cult "The Symbionese Liberation Organization". She was kidnapped, kept in a closet, raped, punished, and starved by the cult until she started to see thing their way. Next thing you know, she was robbing a bank and killing whoever who got in her way.

Sound familiar?

[Anonymous]

Yup!
And around that time there was a British movie about a boarding school  -- I think the title was "If.."
Did anyone see it?

[ehm]

On 2003-03-18 18:49:00, Anonymous wrote: "to the person who theorizes that elizabeth was sent away for 9 months because she was pregnant --you must be deranged.  your brain must be fried.  how do you find your way out of a paper bag.  you sound more bizarre than brian david mitchell. "

What? :question:

I know exactly what it feels like to want to get away from home so bad, that I was willing to live with this crazy 23 year old guy when I was 15 in a trailor, and I was a doctor's daughter. He thought he was the 2nd coming and the devil, completely insane. 15 is a very impressionable age. I was desparate and afraid. He beat me(hitting, choking, throwing,)raped me(forced sex) and locked me in his room daily, and I stayed with him, and remained in hiding just to not get sent away again by my mother who had no energy for parenting, and to much money. That was 16 years ago, and until recently, I never really gave it much thought because, I've spent to much time trying to move on and get away from the past. Because of all the horrible things I've been through though I have two mental disorders that are serious enough not to try and ignore anymore. I at 31, need to face it, and re-learn how to think about my life all over. My past almost destroyed my future. My long winded point is that, I was brainwashed by this guy. He had me believeing his insanity was real, and I wanted to. I just knew I couldn't go home, if I did, my mom would send me away. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. And she did send me away, that's how I landed in Straight. Before Straight, I was in a "boot-camp" for 18 months. Because I was a teen with  behavior problems?
"No."
 The problem was my reality. Not all parents with money are good. No-one that worked at Straight were concerned with my confessions of rape, I was made to believe that it was my fault, because I was a  "druggie." Being forced and tortured to conform, is evil. But after awhile, that's normal. Just like it was with Allen,(crazy 23 year old boyfriend)
I'm sorry, I do beleive religion is a cult mind set.It's like joining a club of morals or values. Yet belittleing those who don't follow. I'm glad to see past being a follower. My mother is a babtist, and wants to do missionary work, she just got fired from another job, and moved back in with her dying mother,(free condo, when she dies!) She's wearing my Grandmothers wedding ring which is a huge diamond because my Grandmother has lost so much weight,( weighs 85 lbs. currently)she can't wear it herself. She's not dead yet! My Grandma told me, "She stole it from me, because I can't wear it." My mother is so greedy, swisted, and pathetic. But, a good christian! :scared:
If there is anything, It's not found in your churches.
Call me kooky. I have my own mind thank you.

Secular Humanism is an idea though.                                   http://www.secularhumanism.org
Morli


[ This Message was edited by: Morli on 2003-03-24 08:06 ]

[Anonymous]

I do agree the mormons are a cult.  However, they proclaim to be a religous organization.  I lived in utah, new york, and colorado.

The influence of "the church" in utah is out of control.  It's so bad, that I moved.  You go to any other state the mormons do not have the much control.

However, take in consideration the catholic church.  You can go state to state and still find influence from the church.  With mormons they just have one territory.  They are a cult.  

As for elizabeth smart, it's cool she is back.  I was at that party that she was at.  I never recognized her.  It's good she is safe, however this type of thing happens all day.  The only reason everybody knows Elizabeth's name is because her father is a capitalists.  

If this happened to the lower class it never would have been publized.