Author Topic: So what DOES work?  (Read 15168 times)

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Offline psy

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Authority figures and paranoia
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2006, 09:15:00 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Nothing is more harmful to the development of young adults than the shitty examples of their authority figures.


Thanks to my experiences in program I now have an innate paranoia of authority figures.  I have no criminal record or any reason to be worried, but I still get nervous around police.  I never used to be that way.  I see them as goons on a power trip who would rather toy with me for kicks than "serve and protect."  I was never this way before i went into program.  I don't trust authority anymore.  I'm more cynical than ever.  I have no faith whatsoever in government or the law.  Maybe i shouldn't have any faith in them.  After all, what has the law done to help take down these programs.

What has the government done?  Have you seen the amount of money contributed by Ken Kay to the republican party?  You don't think this influences decision making (especially locally) even a little?  In this country we have legalized corruption in the form of campaign contributions.  I do not think the framers of the constitution had K street in mind when they envisioned the right to petition our government.  "Petition" in my mind, does not invoke visions of dollar signs.  The corporation killed democracy.

The way i see it, if you can't trust authority, then that authority is not legitimate, and you have to find your own justice. Derive from that what you will.
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Offline Oz girl

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2006, 09:19:10 PM »
I would say the issue is not entirely that kids are running away or whether they are lying about abuse. Some kids, just like some adults probably do tell lies from time to time. The issue is that the client of a tbs is not the kid at all but the parent. Therefore any TBS, even a good one has a vested financial interest in taking the side of the parent. It cant possibly therefore be expected to remain neutral.
I think the bigger question is why a kid will run from a place repeatedly in the first place. Either the environment is so awful that the kid cant stand being there (abusive or not) or the kid feels so much need to get their parents attention that they are willing to make a bold statement by running repeatedly. In both of these scenarios it does not seem like the TBS is helping the kid.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline psy

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2006, 11:30:44 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I think the bigger question is why a kid will run from a place repeatedly in the first place.


It is often "that awful that the kids can't stand being there".  In my experience, kids do not have to lie about their experiences in program, though many believe what they say to be lies becuase things sounds so bad.  If the parents or authorities were doing their jobs, giving people the benifit or the doubt, and investigating the situation, things might turn out differently.  You would think more people would be suspicious considering the "coincidental" likenesses of the stories from kids all over the country.

Reading the CEDU forum on fornits is like reading from my memory, and the same shit is happening over and over and over again.  I wish more parents did research on the internet.  The would find the same stories their kids try to tell them (labeled as manipulative) repeated almost verbatim again and again.  Sure some kids lie, but in my experience, most of them did not becuase the truth was bad enough.

I can understand a parent's scepticism though.  Parents, who have entrusted their children to an institution, are more likely to believe the official program story.  Keep in mind, many of them are also under a financial burden, having already paid in advance for the program.  They often view their kids as "throwing their education away" when they get into trouble in program.

It has been my experience that debates are won based on who has the most persuasive arguments, the most experience, and the most time to argue.  The program wins this competition every single time by restricting and/or manipulating communication between child and parent.  When all you hear is one side of the story, it becomes the truth to most people.  Just look at political polarization if you need a good example.  Critical thinking skills are not valued anymore as, more and more, people look to others for answers they could (and probably should) find themselves.

Parents have no comprhension whatsoever of what goes on.  It's one of those things you have to experience to truly know what it is like.  There is no book or documentary that can really do it justice.  There is no easy way to illustrate what it is like to have your mind cracked open and fucked with like a toy.  In this way, it is not easy to describe exactly what made things hell.

Some programs physically beat you down, other programs break your mind, break your will, and remake you as a mindless pawn.  When you're broken, it's like your watching your life being lived, rather than actually being behind the driver's seat.  You relinquish control.  You become who you must become to survive, and a part of you starves to death in the process.  Physical injuries heal but the emotional death inflicted by these programs lasts a lifetime.  I've seen people on this forum who got out of program 20 years ago, and they still are crushed by their experiences.

The worst of them never realize the abuse they underwent and as a result become supporters of the program, most likely sending their kids off at the slightest sign of independant thought.  The victim becomes the victimizer, all the while living in a dream world where severity of punishment indicates love, where compassion is naive, where mercy is harmful.  They start to believe that they know what other people think, and can "call you on your shit" when most of the time they have no idea what they are talking about.

Studies have shown that experienced cops, when asked to judge whether somebody was lying or not, more often than not, were wrong.  When their results were compared to a group of randomly chosen people, it was discovered that the cops scored worse.  Often they scored so badly that they would have been better of randomly guessing.  The only difference is that the cops were more certain in their judgements.

This type of fanatical self-confidence Is what the staff are in these programs are infected with.  They go off on power trips, fueled by their belief that their experiences somehow gave them supernatural insight into the minds of others.  Often, this confidence aids in convincing kids that who they are is a lie.  Eventually you believe it (almost all do for at least a time, though few would admit the shame of it), though endless the exercises, workshops, rap sessions etc.  You are mentally raped in program and it carries a greater degree of shame.  At least if you are raped you know you couldn't have prevented it.  When they break you, at some point in time you think "i wasn't strong enough to resist."

I believe many program councelors and staff believe they are doing the right thing.  I believe this to be for two reasons:
   - how could one live if one did not believe this?
   - they have gone through the same things?
Even then, it is doubtful many of them could keep themselves in this state of self denial for long.  Staff in programs often burn out, after which they either leave, relapse, or both.

There are a few (thankfully rare) completely sociopathic staff members who know exactly what they are doing, and either derive enjoyment from it, or have no problems doing whatever it takes to put money in the bank.

Councelors in my program often went through the workshops (profeets et. al. for CEDU people) with the kids.  They underwent the same Lifespring-esque programming we did.  They ended up believing the shit they said, and it made it all the more convincing when they said it with conviction.  When you are immersed in such an enviornment, it is futile to try to be normal or "work the program."  If they suspected you were not "honest" enough about how you felt, even if you were being completely honest, they would apply more pressure until your head popped open and they could insert whatever truth they wanted you to believe.

Let me reiterate, the damage done by these programs is permanant.  Things get blocked out, but they never go away, and when you ignore the past it pesters and pokes at you until you deal with it.  My mother used to tell me to "get over it, you're out of there now, move on."  At the same time, i never realized why now i am different.  I never put two and two together (until just recently, when reading my memories online) to realize how much i had changed since i went into program:

i don't trust anybody more than superficially
it is worse with people i know
i rarely sleep
when i do i don't sleep well
i don't like to be around people anymore
i find comfort in isolation
i'm more paranoid than ever

I'm hoping somehow, by writing this, that maybe it will convince some parent not to send their kid away.  I'm hoping maybe it will help somebody to remember, to get pissed off, to heal.  I don't know whether it's possable to heal but i do know it is possable to shut down these programs.  I know that will make me feel better, to know it will not happen to others.  All it takes is a loud enough scream.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline ZenAgent

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2006, 01:31:32 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""

It has been my experience that debates are won based on who has the most persuasive arguments, the most experience, and the most time to argue.  The program wins this competition every single time by restricting and/or manipulating communication between child and parent.  When all you hear is one side of the story, it becomes the truth to most people.  Just look at political polarization if you need a good example.  Critical thinking skills are not valued anymore as, more and more, people look to others for answers they could (and probably should) find themselves.



Thank you for putting that so well.  As a parent with a child in an abusive facility, I understand the one-sidedness the programs use to their advantage.  Any questioning of the program can get a parent labelled "negative" and shut out of the communication loop with their own child, and that can last as long as the program thinks necessary. From a parent's perspective, nothing is more agonizing and frustrating than being shut off from your child by a program you know is harming your child, and you feel powerless.  You're right, though, eventually these programs will disappear like child labor did.  I also encourage kids who "escape" these programs to sue the parent or parents that put them there.  The chance of being sued by your own child would be a strong deterrent to the "ship 'em off and fix 'em" mentality.

Your voice in this will help, with the experience you share.  You'll save kids first, then you'll see this "industry" wither and die.  I feel so badly for you, and I'm also terrified my child will come out the same way.  I think we'll all need some serious healing, and ending the industry is a step.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline psy

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Suing the parents?!?!
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2006, 02:32:07 PM »
And what exactly would suing your parents accomplish, save to widen the family rift that the program seeks to encourage?  Do you really think that would discourage parents from sending their kids to program?  You would have to prove parents knew of the abusive conditions (which is hard considering the program propoganda and lack of communication).  Most parents have no idea what is going on at these programs, and if they did would be very very pissed.

   
Quote
As a parent with a child in an abusive facility


     What is stopping you from going to the program unannounced, and demanding they release you child.  If they refuse, come back with the cops and/or goons with guns.  If there is some parental dispute as to the effectiveness of the program i suggest you work on convincing your (possably ex) partner of the dangers of these programs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Suing the parents?!?!
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2006, 03:25:42 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
And what exactly would suing your parents accomplish, save to widen the family rift that the program seeks to encourage?

For a lot of Fornits posters, it's not just about the money, the huge chunk ripped out of their lives, or the lasting emotional damage. It's about revenge, and there isn't much better revenge you can legally get than bankrupting your parents and redirecting their calls to your lawyer. The parents should just feel lucky they're taking it legally. Find a few posts by "SCL Survivor" (a Guest, who will no longer even talk to his parents or allow them to see his children) and some others. I explain why below.

Quote
Do you really think that would discourage parents from sending their kids to program?

If it makes headlines, definitely.

Quote
You would have to prove parents knew of the abusive conditions (which is hard considering the program propoganda and lack of communication).  Most parents have no idea what is going on at these programs, and if they did would be very very pissed.

Here, you are wrong in many cases. Go take a look through the "More bullshit advice from ST" thread if you don't believe me. There are a lot of parents who have no clue, but there are a lot of parents who DO know what's going on and actively APPROVE of it, and then there are those who REFUSE to know what's going on or what's actually being done to their children. This last might be the largest group.

Needless to say, this sort of attitude spawns a fantastic amount of hatred and spite. The "Straight, Inc." board's biggest thread is "I just smoked a huge bowl of pot". Think on why.

As an aside, I don't personally care how this shit is ended; youthful revenge is a great motivator, but most of the lawsuits against WWASPS are done by parents, and the HLA takeout is fueled by former staff.

Quote
What is stopping you from going to the program unannounced, and demanding they release you child.  If they refuse, come back with the cops and/or goons with guns.  If there is some parental dispute as to the effectiveness of the program i suggest you work on convincing your (possably ex) partner of the dangers of these programs.


Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2006, 03:30:34 PM »
Maybe suing the parent is a bad idea.  I'm speaking from the point of view where a divorced couple is at odds.  Father supports the program, mother does not.  The child is denied contact with the mother now.  The rift between child and father runs deep, and is not improving with "treatment".  I'm afraid the child associates the horrors of the program with the father, and maybe rightly so.  Being confined, abused, and denied all contact with the people you love...I just think some things can't be repaired.  I'm very aware of what's going on in the program, and I despise it.  The other parent involved here is aware of the abuses, but considers them necessary "tough love", so he is aware, but supports it anyway.  I shouldn't have been thinking out loud basically about the lawsuit idea, but I believe in this individual case, so much has been lost that can never be recovered.  How do you put a value on your teenage years?  

Not my ex, either.  My situation is that of step parent.  The dangers have been expressed over and over, the program backing parent considers them isolated incidents.  Every case is individual, and not as easily resolved as you would think.  You've already mentioned people who think they have the supernatural ability to call you on your shit, and refuse to accept that they made a mistake by choosing an abusive program.  A little sympathy for the parents who DO know the difference, please.

What you suggest about forcing her out is illegal for me, and like you, I have an aversion to the police.  We would be arrested, the child would be returned, and nothing accomplished except confirming what ST people already think about us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline ZenAgent

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2006, 03:33:07 PM »
And I forgot to sign in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline RobertBruce

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2006, 03:38:29 PM »
I don't speak to mine nor would I ever allow them to see their grandchildren for that very reason. In one of the last times I spoke to them I made it clear that I have two bottles of champagne put away for when I hear of their death. I'll celebrate their demise and as soon as I get the chance head on up to the cemetary and piss on both their graves.

All of this because they put me in hla, ignored me when I begged for help, and knew what was going on all along.

They could die tommorow and I wouldnt care, and believe me I'm better off for it.
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Offline Anonymous

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2006, 03:38:32 PM »
So answer my question, ZA. Wasn't she supposed to get out in three months... more than three months ago?
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Offline ZenAgent

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Re: Suing the parents?!?!
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2006, 03:39:36 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?


The balls?  I want to see the child at home, not separated by a sheet of plexiglass and talking on a phone.  Everyone seems to think I should Rambo the fucking door down, waste a few counselors when they pop up like mushrooms in my way, and make off with the child and live happily ever after.  Jesus Christ, if this isn't done right and legally, then my girl's in there for a long, long time with no hope, and right now, hope is a good thing for her.

More than three months ago?  check the time frames involved, she wouldn't have been there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2006, 03:42:33 PM »
I've never been of the opinion that you should waste a few of the counselors, ZA. (C'mon, you can guess my opinion, I don't even need to say it.)

But Jesus FUCK, what the hell is going ON?

(Sorry, my timetable is off.)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 03:44:19 PM by Guest »

Offline ZenAgent

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So what DOES work?
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2006, 03:43:28 PM »
The wheels of justice move slowly, unfortunately.  Shysters get paid by the hour.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2006, 03:51:13 PM »
Speaking seriously and legally, though, it sounds like those wheels need some grease.

Is your shyster actually good at what he's doing?

Have you contacted local news organizations to drum up some bad publicity?

Have you yet sued PV, itself? I'm sure you've got plans. Don't forget to sue individual people in their capacities of ___.

Are you actually suing her biological father right now?

Has your lawyer yet tried to become HER lawyer? This is actually possible in some cases. Has he tried it, or told you it's impossible for ___ legal reason, or have you even broached the matter with him? Even if it's probably not going to happen, it's worth bringing up.

All I can say is this: Look for opportunities, and ask yourself this: "What can I legally do that I am not doing right now?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

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Re: Suing the parents?!?!
« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2006, 04:01:40 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
For a lot of Fornits posters, it's not just about the money, the huge chunk ripped out of their lives, or the lasting emotional damage. It's about revenge, and there isn't much better revenge you can legally get than bankrupting your parents and redirecting their calls to your lawyer. The parents should just feel lucky they're taking it legally. Find a few posts by "SCL Survivor" (a Guest, who will no longer even talk to his parents or allow them to see his children) and some others. I explain why below.

My point is not the motive, rather that it is the wrong target.  Maybe some people are out there for revenge, but they should at least direct their hatred into something productive, that might bring down a program and help other kids.  

Quote
Here, you are wrong in many cases. Go take a look through the "More bullshit advice from ST" thread if you don't believe me. There are a lot of parents who have no clue, but there are a lot of parents who DO know what's going on and actively APPROVE of it, and then there are those who REFUSE to know what's going on or what's actually being done to their children. This last might be the largest group.

I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent.  If parents know about what is going on, how do you prove it?  The easiest legal target would be the program, rather than the parents.  How many ex-students have the resources to pull off such a thing anyway?  If students reconcile with their (probably loaded) parents, there is a good chance legal action would be sucessful against the program.  Sure, there are some parents who just view program as a way to dispose of unwanted kids, and I sympathize with the desire to inflict revenge on them, but in my opinion it is far less productive than legal action directly against the program.

I would wager that there are a lot of students who believe that their parents knew what was going on in program, but for whom it was not the case.  Had my parents and I not reconciled, and I had not heard the lies they were told, i would probably still hate them to this day.  Most student i knew of never talked to their parents again.

Quote
As an aside, I don't personally care how this shit is ended; youthful revenge is a great motivator, but most of the lawsuits against WWASPS are done by parents, and the HLA takeout is fueled by former staff.

think on why?

Quote
Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?


To clarify, i am not endorsing going columbine on the place, rather i am saying that if they refuse to release the child, and you have legal custody, you should call the cops.  I'm not endorsing (notice italics) violent action to take down programs (heaven forbid such a thing should happen).  When a legal path of action is possable, it should always be the first choice of action.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)