Author Topic: Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature  (Read 13486 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« on: October 08, 2006, 09:29:17 PM »
Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature

Hello:

I'm new to this forum and looking for info / references on the above locales in Utah.

Not looking for political rhetoric, sales pitches or trolls - just plain info - good or bad

thank you !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 10:28:44 PM »
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
Any reason why you want this info?

Yes:
I have 2 boys. One has been a source of typical concerns- drugs, car joy riding, money theft from the house, disobedience & disorder, etc . 15 years old going on either 8 or 20, depending upon the scenario.

My wife is adamant about sending the oldest (15) to one of these booy camps in Utah (noted above). I am dead set against it. She has been trying to enlist support via the various psychologits, pschiatrists etc - she has called the police a number of times (3) on him. Lately, as I have been reflecting on many of the issues and taking him thru counselling, I begin to see a different pattern - one of almost sef fulfilling prophecy where my wife seems to have been coerced or is being led down a garden path by some of these advisors, referres, specialty social workers or educationists etc, who all seem to promote a couple camps in Utah.

I ahve been following along as to some of the ins and outs of the "kidnapping" scenarios (escorts) of these teens and the difficulties of etracting them from any given place and some of the difficulties if one paren chooses and commits these children without the other parent's concent.

I understand the referral-for-profit motive also the Troubled Parenrting Syndrome

Looking more for specificis on these two particular locations as they are the ones that seem to reoccur in some of the dialogue she is receiveing and lately her plans as they gain momentum.

thx
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Offline Deborah

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 11:29:36 PM »
Contact Nick. He should be able to give you the inside scoop on SNW.

Hi Alexia. 12/20/04. We are compiling a reader by and for teens on the systematic abuse of children in institutions such as those on your website. Could you please post the following on your website:

Call to submissions for a new reader about abusive institutions for youth entitled Teenage Lobotomy: a Zine about the Institutionalization of Youth.
The reader will consist of:

-An introduction to the abuses that take place at therapeutic boarding schools, residential treatment facilities, and wilderness programs
-Personal stories and interviews from students, parents, and ex-teachers
-Disscussion of alternative ways to help "troubled" teens, including art therapy, various forms of counseling (such as utilizing AA outpatient programs or talking to mentors for help), and other programs that encourage healing in positive ways.
-Information about mental health, youth emancipation and "manuevering the system" (such as the prison system and juvenile detention centers)

We need your stories.
This may include:

-Where you (or your child, or your friend) were sent
-Specific disciplinairy techniques used
-Reasons for being sent away
-What the staff was like
-How the experience affected you (or your child, or your friend)
-Approximate relapse rate
-Legal actions taken against the institution (if there ever were any)

These are only guidelines. You may tell your story in words, pictures, or any form of communication that will bring your experience to life.

This reader is being compiled by two teenage artists and writers- Nick, who was locked up in the Family Foundation School in New York, Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah, and Saint Paul's Prep School in Arizona, and his close friend Sarah.

Contact us at:

Nick- [email protected]
or write to
3706 72nd Street # 5H
Jackson Heights, New York 11372

http://www.teenliberty.org/Dear_Alexia.htm

Second Nature is a difficult search term. I wasn't willing to sift through the thousands of returns, but here's a recent thread.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=40&Sort=

Might want to read the Brat Camp forum and ask your wife what she hopes to accomplish by sending your son to be force marched through the desert.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 07:39:24 AM »
I don't SNWP or Outback are intrinsically bad, but I also think there are better choices -- better on a lot of levels.

First question is whether or not any away-from-home program is needed.  If yes (and read further before answering), for what purpose (that is, why?).  Without more details, nobody can give a fair opinion, although most posting on fornits will be anti-program period.

Next question, if a program is apropriate, is how to get your son there.  It is clear that you are already so set against the idea that you refer to "kidnapping", which is absolutely not what good escorts do - although again most here may disagree.

Going back, that you are evidently so anti-program, and your wife is so pro-program (and specifically one of two mentioned) and apparently nothing further is being discussed suggests to me that you all have it wrong.  It suggests that what you need is a competent family therapist -- one who can effectively deal with each member of the family individually and as a group.  You won't be doing a good parenting job if you and your spouse aren't even close to the "same page".  Your son (like most teens) is hardly stupid, and at least in part is rebellng against the evident rift between his parents.

I do think that giving him a "break" away may be a great idea, but maybe better to do it like a weekend camping trip -- as a family?!!

Yeah, I think lots of programs do lots of good, but you've got a long way to go before either you or your wife ought to get serious about sending your son away.  (And if you ever do get to that point, be sure to check widely - not just one place.)
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Offline Anonymous

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 11:01:44 AM »
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline.  The distractions of the home environment are removed.  The staff is excellent.
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Offline kemosabe

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 04:58:21 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline.  The distractions of the home environment are removed.  The staff is excellent.


You must either work for one of these or be on some sort of referral basis.

From what I can read, one of these ( second nature I believe)  hires young people as their field trip counsellors requiring only a 7-day training period and having a minimum CPR course.  These are the staff that take the kids out on their wilderness journey. The employment brochure instructs them that they are the "teachers" to the incarerated teens.

Rather professional staff, huh ?

In the other one, it seems the chld is not permitted to call home but the parent can speak with a pre-arranged counselor periodically to hear about the progress.

Geeze, sounds like my dog gets better treatment when I put him in a boarding kennel.
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Offline Troll Control

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 05:07:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline.  The distractions of the home environment are removed.  The staff is excellent.


*COUGH, COUGH*

Whoa!  I'm choking on the programmie sales pitch!  The "outdoor environment" does nothing to teach kids "self-discipline."  What a crock of shit.
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Offline Oz girl

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 07:23:45 PM »
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
1. The war is Won when GULAG schools are put out of business, along with the people who run them. When the U.S. Congress joins the rest of the world in signing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Federal and State authorities enforce it, this industry of child abuse will cease to exist. Only two other countries, including China, have failed to sign this human rights document protecting the civil and human rights of children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.


I think this is an excellent point. But to the original poster why not some kind of non punitive outward bound style expidition?
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Oz girl

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 07:24:18 PM »
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
1. The war is Won when GULAG schools are put out of business, along with the people who run them. When the U.S. Congress joins the rest of the world in signing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Federal and State authorities enforce it, this industry of child abuse will cease to exist. Only two other countries, including China, have failed to sign this human rights document protecting the civil and human rights of children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.


I think this is an excellent point. But to the original poster why not some kind of non punitive outward bound style expidition?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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you're not accurate...
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2006, 08:59:50 AM »
I DON'T REPLY TO BLOGS...DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT, SO I CUT AND PASTED YOUR STUFF AND REPLIED IN BOLD -- I'M NOT "CYBER-YELLING"  I JUST WASN'T SURE HOW TO DO IT...

Quote:
What qualifications do I need?
Second Nature looks for individuals with great people skills, ability to work in a team, and work under stressful situations if they arise. Field Instructors have diverse backgrounds and education. To work for Second Nature Wilderness Program you must be at least 19 years of age and have a high school diploma or equivalent. I want you to also be certified in Basic First Aid and CPR or greater (WFR, EMT).
Second Nature seeks people who have wilderness experience. It is preferable that you have fairly extensive backpacking experience. This experience can be either be professional or personal. You will be backpacking and hiking your entire shift anywhere from 2 to 8 miles a day with a backpack. Second Nature does not use cabins or have a ?base camp?; you will be moving campsites almost everyday.
Experience with youth, counseling, teaching, previous wilderness experience, or participation in similar activities will certainly improve your resume. Second Nature also offers in-house training from which you will be able to learn communication skills, crisis interventions, and many more tools that you will use working with teens. Second Nature will also ask that you make a commitment of working in the field for at least six to eight months.


http://www.snwp.com/Subsubpages.asp?id=59



Definitely some red flags with this company.

1) 19 years old and at minimum a Red Cross CPR card and high school diploma and equivalent.

Wouldn't be a cause for concern if the person your child is spending the majority of his time around in this program is barely out of high school with 7 days of training and a red cross CPR card?  

I WORKED AT SECOND NATURE (5 YEARS AGO) AND I WORKED AT A LOCAL ACUTE RESIDENTIAL PROGRAM THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR ADOLESCENTS IN CRISIS.  THE "FRONT LINE" PEOPLE AT SECOND NATURE GET INFINITELY MORE TRAINING. SECOND NATURE HAS A LEVEL SYSTEM SO THE INITIAL "TRAINING PERIOD" IS DESIGNED TO INTRODUCE POTENTIAL STAFF TO THE PROGRAM AND PROCESS AND SCREEN OUT FOLKS WHO DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO DO THE WORK.  IF HIRED, THEY GO THROUGH AN INTERNSHIP AND LEVEL SYSTEM WHERE THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY HAVE MASTERED SKILLS TO MOVE UP THE LEVEL SYSTEM.  AGAIN, THE FRONT LINE FOLKS AT SECOND NATURE GET MUCH MORE TRAINING THEN AT A TRADITIONAL RTC.  IT'S A COMPREHENSIVE, WELL ORGANIZED

I am not saying a college degree is needed, but certainly there needs to be something more in their hiring practices. What is the work history of the applicant? Have they worked with kids before? What wilderness experience do they have other than being able to hike up to 8 miles a day with a back pack?

SEE ABOVE ---


2) The program in Utah has no base camps. This means your child could potentially go up to 3 months without properly bathing. Worst in freezing weather your child will most likely be sleeping out of doors in a tent. Given that most of the time SN kids sleep on tarps in sleeping bags, the lack of base camps really worries me. I've slept outside in freezing weather before on many occasions, and have to say their isn't very much that is theraputic about it.


IT'S EXTREMELY SAFE AND THERAPEUTIC...

Quote:
The Second Nature Wilderness Program emphasizes assessment and intervention, with attention to behavioral steadiness, student accountability and preparation for long-term stability and treatment. Unlike boot camp programs for troubled youth, Second Nature integrates the most clinical therapies with necessary behavioral interventions. Instead of teaching by instigating fear in the troubled teen, Second Nature teaches accountability and choice. In both the long and short run, this therapeutic approach has proven to be more effective in changing the lives of troubled teens than any teen boot camps you might have considered.



3) Given the above high lighted passage I think it will be a greater chance rather than lesser chance that you will find yourself being advised to seek a long term commitment, rather than intergration back into the family.

TRUE AND THAT'S WHAT THE LITERATURE SUGGESTS...(AND IT MAKES INTUITIVE SENSE)...AND, SECOND NATURE IS "UP FRONT" ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT A "MAGIC PROCESS"  - 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES YOU'LL SEE AN ADOLESCENT WHO WAS MAKING HORRIBLE CHOICES, PUTTING THEIR LIFE AT RISK, ECT... HAVE A SIGNIFICANT WORLDVIEW SHIFT...AND, 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES YOU'LL HEAR A KID SAY "I'M GONNA COME BACK HERE AND WORK...THIS CHANGED MY LIFE"  ---   1 OUT OF 10 TIMES, IT' DOESN'T WORK AS WELL...BUT IT'S NEVER ABUSIVE --

4) Second nature utilizes a stage system for a 1 size fits all therapy. Your child need's will not be given real individual attention, he or she will be just another hobo roll carrying member of a group of lentil and bean eating kids.

THAT'S JUST SILLY, THEY'VE GOT LICENSED, EXPERIENCED (THE MOST EXPERIENCED IN THE INDUSTRY) THERAPISTS (SEVERAL ARE DOCTORAL LEVEL THERAPISTS  - SUCH AS, LICENSED PSYCHOLOGISTS)...WHO ARE TREATMENT TEAM LEADERS.

THEY ARE IN THE FIELD FOR 2 DAYS (AGAIN, COMPARE THAT TO THE AMOUNT OF TIME AN ADOLESCENT WILL SEE THEIR THERAPIST IN A TRADITIONAL "WELL RESPECTED" RESIDENTAIL PROGRAM AND YOU'LL SEE THAT THE THERAPIST AT SECOND NATURE SEENS THE KIDS ABOUT 20 HOURS OR MORE PER WEEK --- THE THERAPIST IS INTEGRATED INTO THE GROUP FOR 2 DAYS A WEEK, AND, WHEN THEY LEAVE THE GROUP, THEY LEAVE AN INDIVIDUAL TREATMENT PLAN FOR EACH KID...

5) Places like Second Nature make claims about having a much lauded staff of psycologists who will personally work with your child. Your child is out in the woods most of the time moving from camp to camp. The psycologist isn't with the group but more than one time a week. The bulk of the therapy is going to come from the field instructors who have their high school diplomas and red cross certifications.

SEE ABOVE...THIS MODEL ALLOWS FOR SIGNIFICANTLY MORE CONTACT THEN A TRADITIONAL RESIDENTAIL PSYCH UNIT

----------------

I KNOW THIS IS A FORUM DESIGNED FOR FOLKS WHO ARE ANTI-PROGRAMS FOR TEENS...  WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME HORRIFIC PROGRAMS FOR TEENS...  IT SEEMS SILLY TO "THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER" --THERE ARE ALSO SOME AMAZING PROGRAMS AND SECOND NATURE IS ONE OF THEM...

I AM SURELY BIASED BECAUSE I WORKED THERE --- SO, I'M SHARING THAT BIAS WITH YOU...  PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR OWN BIASES / AGENDA AND SEE HOW THAT MIGHT BE AFFECTING HOW YOU JUDGE PLACES...
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Offline Little Eagle

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 10:18:55 PM »
dude! I went to outback! it was not fun in the sense that you were separated from everything you knew, and weren't even allowed to know what time it was!
However, it was a very enlightening experience, just don't make your kid stay for as long as i did, 13 weeks. the average is about 8-10 weeks
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Offline rayjax

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 10:42:14 AM »
..............................
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Offline glaceau

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 05:53:14 PM »
My wife had my son kidnapped and sent to Outback Therapeutic Expedition even though I have joint custody.  I went to Utah to try to get him back but Outback made it clear that they would require me to file a lawsuit in Utah to get him back. I couldn't afford to do that. They had cooperated with my wife in hiding him from me in the wilderness and I had no way of finding him.

Outback Therapeutic Expedition knew they were helping to use him as a weapon. There had been no psych eval before he was sent out there, and even when they had one done by their pet Psychologist, the only diagnosis they came up with to keep him was Depression Not Otherwise Specified.

In my opinion, the people at Outback Therapeutic Expedition should be put in Jail.
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Offline Joyce Harris

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 06:49:10 PM »
How long will your son be enrolled at this wilderness program?
Are you aware that most kids get sent on to long-term residential treatment programs after they complete the wilderness program?
Are you working with your attorney to intervene on such a placement?
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Offline glaceau

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Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2007, 09:49:54 PM »
When my son was first sent to wilderness, the story they gave me was that it was a 1 to 2 month process and he would be back home again. Then they diagnosed him with Depression NOS, and said Residential Therapeutic Facility was the right place for him.  They gave me a bunch of bullshit about me having frequent contact with him, but it was all a lie. They wouldn't even let me see him when he went from the wilderness program to the Residential Therapeutic facility.  

It has been 6 months since I have been able to talk to my son even by telephone. Now they want to place him in another facility because the facility he is in now has discovered how many lawsuits my ex-wife has filed in the past and apparently figured out that my wife will sue them no matter what they do and ask for all her money back.  They appear to be trying to turf him off to another unsuspecting facility as soon as they can. In the mean time, I believe they are afraid to let him talk to me because they are hoping to keep her from suing them. They appear to have figured out that she is much more formidable as a litigant than I am.

I have been fighting this in court and am now bankrupt. My ex-wife has all the marital assets tied up.

I have talked to several psychologists and one adolescent psychiatrist, and they all say that what is happening is child abuse. These people should be in jail.
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