Bowling for Columbine

[Dr Phil]

And what, in your opinion, is the "mark he missed" HorseEater? What's the "real reason" Columbine, and the other school shootings, happened?

It must be all the flouride in the water.

It wouldn't make sense that she worked for WWASPS while simultaneously hosting a forum that is critical, would it?

It says to me, the individual does not believe what they are selling.

[AtomicAnt]

Really? You believe he ?builds his fame off dead kids??

Yep, that is what I really believe. I was the same age as the kids at Columbine when it happened, and in my opinion he doesn't come even close to the real reasons for the tragedy. I think he picks an issue, in this case gun control, and goes with it. Like you said about this new shooter in Montreal, I am sure the anti- video game crowd will be all over that... but can a video game really explain why someone becomes a killer and kills themself? I don't think so, and I don't think that gun restrictions would stop school shootings either. I feel that Moore's film is misdirection, rather than address the issues that lead to school shootings in society it's simplified and the audience is given a mantra to repeat, in this case no more guns. Moore could have easily blamed it on Marilyn Manson, as some politicians and others have done, if that was his issue. Or he could of gone the anti-depressant route. He didn't even mention it, again he gets to frame the issue, and in my opinion he missed the mark, dismissaly.

As far as the stocks. The guy makes a movie mocking the president for having financial connections to the bin ladins, and saudis, and war profiteering. Now that the guy has tens of millions of dollars he wants to keep safe, he invests in coporations that actually kill people like halliburton. He owns stock of a company who's job it is to provide mercenaries in a war zone, while making a film against said war. You can't get any more hypocritical than that, so why should we believe a work of his movies?

I did not get the anti-gun message from the movie. He made several statements that contradicted that 'availability of guns' is to blame. He pointed out that in Canada there are more guns per person than in the USA, the same violent media (games, movies, etc) and yet a much lower crime rate (and gun crime rate) than the USA. He used the same argument to say that media is not to blame. The film really gave no definitive answers. It only asked the question and explored possibilities.

As for gun control, the advantage of a handgun ban would be that most gun related deaths are not crimes. They are accidents. These accidents often involve children and if they did not have access to the guns, they would not have been harmed.

I grew up in an area where guns outnumbered people some ten to one. Everyone owned them. They still close the public schools on the first day of hunting season. Crime was relatively low there. But most of knew that you had a better chance of getting shot by your own gun, by accident, than you had of actually successfully defending yourself with it. As my best friend's father told me when I was about 12, "There are more people in cemetaries that got shot by empty guns than got shot by loaded ones." Obviously, you have to discount war related casualities, but the point remains valid.

A friend of mine was shot in the face when he only nine years old. Fortunately, the bullet went in one cheek and out the other and missed all bones, teeth, etc. The gun was 'empty.' His brother was in the next room cleaning it.

I personally do not know anyone who is a murderer or was a murder victim. I knew two people, (personally, but not that well) that killed themselves with guns.

The last point I would bring up has to do with human impulse and emotion. If someone gets angry or falls into depression and a gun is right on the table, it is far more likely to be used. If they have to take time and steps to access a gun (a waiting period), chances are they will cool off and not even bother.

For the record, I am against banning guns. At the same time, there are no guns in my home.

[BuzzKill]

My take on what I saw of the film was the same as Atomic Ants - it didn't seem like he made any kind of conclusion - just tossed out theories - which he then largely disproved.

From what I could gather he was working up to blaming racial tension (the cartoon you liked so much Deb) but if he went on to dismiss that theory, I missed it. If he stuck to that theory, I think he is wrong.

I found it interesting there was a bank giving away guns - but that was all. I didn't feel it proved anything much. I assumed that bank was in a rural community where hunting is a major pass time.

I was surprised at how much sence M. Manson made. I too, was impressed with his comment that he would have listened to the boys - but when you think about it - he is assuming no one listened to them. He doesn't know any such thing - and neither do we. No one knows what made them snap. No one knows that they were ignored,  or if they were listened to by family, or therapist. We're just guessing.

People come down so hard on the parents - that they didn't know what was going on with the kids. But how were they to know? You can't expect the boys would tell them - no matter how much mom and dad tried to get them to open up.

And I know about the controversy about the pipe bombs and weapons in the boys rooms - but then I go and look in my own son's room - and I think "no way I would know what he has hidden under all that junk" - the piles of clothes and old boxes and bags - and just junk.

I do occasionally go in there and clean up (b/c I just can't Stand it!) but in the between times - he could hind a lot of weaponry if he wanted to.

Maybe these boy's parents were self absorbed and inattentive block heads. But maybe not. I do feel for them. I can not imagine the pain they must be in. As obsessed as "we" are with the hows and whys of this situation - imagine how they must obsess over it.

As to the "why" Q: In each school shooting case that I am aware of, the boys in question were said to be victims of bullying - or at least a good deal of teasing. But in this case, other than their class mates saying they were strange and loaners I didn't hear that these boys were really picked on. If they came across as strange, that's b/c they were trying hard to do just that. If they were loaners - it seems to be the way they wanted it.

So, I don't think we can lay the blame for Columbine on bullies - except in that Harris and Klebole were themselves bullies in the same extreme sort of way that the SS were bullies.  

And even in the cases where the boys were clearly picked on - why did that make them killers - when generations of American boys have been picked on, and not turned into spree killers. What has changed?

What about our society has changed in the last generation?

And leaving school shootings aside - back we come to Why do we have such a murder rate in this country - when we are otherwise much like any other western nation?

Suppose it could be genetics? Its just in our blood to kill? Maybe some weird combination of our genetic make-up and the weather. Maybe our Scotch/ Irish/ Viking blood gets to hot in the heat of the American south and southwest??

Black on Black murder could be a hold over from tribal warring - in fact - so could the feuding that takes place in the mountains - among those of generally scotch/ Irish lines. The clans were always at war.

Wonder if anyone ever looked at that?

[BuzzKill]

PS -

I also agree with your comments about access and accidents and so on. Your quite right. But I was primarily wondering about the murder rate - which is why I left out suicide deaths by gun shot. I know several of those as well.

One was once a good friend of mine. She was with her boy friend and his friends. They were playing cards and she was frying potatoes and everyone was high. She turned the potatoes, then walked into the room where the card game was going on - turned with out a word and went up the stairs to her bed room - and shot herself in the head.

She was a sad case - a long history of mental illness that went ignored by everyone who should have been paying attention.

[Anonymous]

Black on Black murder could be a hold over from tribal warring

That'd be drug related in most cases.

[Anonymous]

Black on Black murder could be a hold over from tribal warring -

stop smoking angel dust

[Anonymous]

Did you watch the interview with Marilyn Manson? I?m wondering because it directly refutes what you just wrote. Moore spent a good deal of time debunking the fear-mongering that the right was spinning about Manson etal being responsible for inspiring Columbine.

I couldnt agree more! I still wonder. What does make America so fearful?

[Antigen]

Ignorance, rampant social isolation.

[Oz girl]

Sorry it was me who forgot to log in (who wonders what makes the US so fearful and agreed with deborahs post)
i also agree that Moore raised more questions than provided answers with that film. His comparison between Canada and the US was if anything an argument against gun contol alone.
the thing is, bad trip, that Australia has also had a history of isolation and many of us shamefully dont really know a lot about what goes on internationally. in part because we are so far away from anywhere and also are an island so share no borders with anyone. But intil the War on Terror, there has not really been much of a culture of fear. We have never had any strong militia movement and the attitude to kids misbehaviour is far more benign.  In part it is apathy. But i wonder what the difference really is.
moore did not look at this issue but does anyone think religion may play a part?

[BuzzKill]

///I couldnt agree more! I still wonder. What does make America so fearful?///

The media.

Michael Crichton's newest book "State of Fear" deals with this issue.

Moore touched on it - how there is always some new thing to be afraid of - and how the media fans the flames. The public is kept in a state of fear.  

Conspiracy theorist will say this is to help facilitate the mass brain washing of the public at large. Other says it is just commercialism - fear sells.

But like with the other possible explanations - I would think this would be true of other western nations. Moore argued that in Canada the news wasn't nearly as loaded with crime and disaster as in the states. So, maybe a state of fear is partly to blame. But in the cases I know of - fear had nothing to do with it. It was just cold blooded murder.

In the case of the school shootings - the boys might have been angry about being teased - afraid of more teasing maybe - but not in fear for their lives. None of them felt their lives were in danger. And in the case of Columbine - they killed themselves.

So - how can a general state of fear - or paranoia - explain it?

Religion being a factor? Well I don't see how.  We're not talking murder for reasons of idealism when we talk about the murder rate in the USA. Not generally anyway.

In two of the school shooting cases, people claim that Christian students were targeted - but its just as likely they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the Paducah KY case - the prayer group had just broken up, and happen to be milling around in the hall, when the shooter came upon them. And the girl in the library in Columbine being shot b/c she admitted believing in God, might also have been shot had she answered no - and as it turns out, her comments are disputed by others anyway.

I might argue that a Lack of religion is causing this - but again - this "lack" is just as much a factor in other western nations as in ours - and even more so in most cases.  So - that can't explain the difference.

Someone mentioned drugs. I do feel that this is a factor in our high murder rates. But aren't drugs also a common problem in other nations? What could it be about our drug use, that differs from theirs, that gets people killed?

[Dr Phil]

let me tell ya'll what it's like
being male, middle class and white
it's a bitch, if you don't believe
listen up to my new cd
sham on

i got shit running through my brain
so intense that i can't explain
all alone in my white boy pain
shake your booty while the band complains

i'm rocking the suburbs
just like michael jackson did
i'm rocking the suburbs
except that he was talented
i'm rocking the suburbs
i take the checks and face the facts
that some producer with computers
fixes all my shitty tracks

i'm pissed off but i'm too polite
when people break in the mcdonalds line
mom and dad you made me so uptight
i'm gonna cuss on the mic tonight
i don't know how much i can take
girl give me something i can break

i'm rocking the suburbs
just like quiet riot did
i'm rocking the suburbs
except that they were talented
i'm rocking the suburbs
i take the checks and face the facts
that some producer with computers
fixes all my shitty tracks

in a haze these days
i pull up to the stoplight
i can feel that something's not right
i can feel that someone's blasting me
with hate and bass
sending dirty vibes my way
cause my great great great great grandad
made someone's great great great great grandaddy slaves
it wasn't my idea
it wasn't my idea
it never was my idea
i just drove to the store
for some preparation h

ya'll don't know what it's like
being male, middle class and white
it gets me real pissed off and it makes me wanna say
fuck

just like jon bon jovi did
i'm rocking the suburbs
except that he was talented
i'm rocking the suburbs
i take the checks and face the facts
that some producer with computers
fixes all my shitty tracks these days
i'm rocking the suburbs
you'd better look out because i'm gonna say fuck

[Antigen]

The one thing I really liked about that film is that it opens questions w/o quite as much of shoving foregone conclusions down the audience's throats as I've come to expect from Michael Moore.

I don't think guns are the problem. I do think one of the main reasons for upholding the right to bear arms (not priviledge) is for the express purpose of defending ourselves from our own or another government.

It's not usually explicit conflict. Think about it. Say your a thug and you want to go rob a store so you can go party this weekend. Which one are you going to rop? The one in the city where it's patently illegal for most people to arm themselves or the one out of town located between the sporting goods store and the town minicipal building? Me? I'm goin for the inner city convenience store cause I'm a whole lot less likely to get shot. That's saying I were I thug, which I'm not, of course.

A well armed society is a polite society because people expect to defend themselves and for others to do the same. So they don't even try to pull the same shit on one another as they do when they know that they've got however much time it takes to get a cop on the scene and interested as a head start before any defense can be mounted.

First, American society isn't really the most violent in the world. That's just propaganda. Sure, there are murders here and barroom brawls that sometimes spill out into the street. Compare that with your typical Irish Soccer game crowd or the AUC playing soccer with the heads of slain suspects in front of the recently departed's grandchildren.

Here's a little commentary on the Austrailian experiment:
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/conte ... p?aid=8073

Interesting quote from that:
   Here is the comparison in violent crime trends between Australia and the United States for the period of 1995 to 2001, calculating rates by dividing the number of crimes reported (7) by the population figures. (8,9). (Negative trends are in parentheses.)

Homicide:         AUS ? (11%)   US ? (32%)
Assault:            AUS ? 39%     US ? (24%)
Rape:               AUS ? 19%     US ? (14%)
Robbery:           AUS ? 70%     US ? (33%) (10)

Looks like the difference between Americans and Aussies is that we damned shaw mean business!

[Antigen]

I think the 'root cause' of a lot of different kinds of breakdowns, though, is as simple as industrialization. During the Industrial Revolution, the population of this country rushed from 80/20 rural/urban to the polar opposite over just a generation or so. Families were broken, homes and communities abandoned, old ways and traditions obsoleted and atrophed. We haven't got the solid foundation these days to maintain sanity and civility. As a culture, we're dying of a broken heart.

And yet I'm hopeful. Check out OutlawHorseEater's posting on LEAP. And the influence of really good, old roots folk music in some really good new stuff coming out. I hope we're somewhere near the extreme in this pendulum swing. What does that mean? When to ppl go all nostalgic like this and what happens next? There's nothing really new under the Sun. History never does really repeat itself, but it always rhymes.

[Oz girl]

www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/australi ... tml?page=2

The above article looks at the growing culture of fear over here. Thought you may be interested.

I had a look atBad trip's article. It was interesting. Perhaps guns do make the US more "polite" but it strikes me as an extreme way to do it. I also wonder if the reason for an increase in violent crime being recorded everywhere is because society had changed and women feel more comfortable reporting violent crime. Particularly domestic violence and sexual assault. If this is the case I dont think it is such a bad thing.
I would also argue that if Australians are capable of beating the wife, getting into violent pub brawls (A long standing tradition in some parts) and generally beating the crap out of each other at a higher rate than you guys, then it is a good thing that we dont have as many guns to help us    :wink:

Also this article higlighted to me that in spite of Australia potentially being more violent we murder each other much less not out of any greater virtue but because we have less access to weapons.

I would also wonder if good manners vary slightly from culture to culture. I can remeber when i was young and stupid being pulled over in the US for speeding & doing what everyone immediately does here and opening the car door to get out and talk with the cop. It was a valuable lesson in etiquette! The cop immediately put his hand on his gun and ordered me to remain within the vehicle. I was eventually berated for my stupidity by my American cohorts who (and i dont know if there was some poetic licence) told me that this was a good way to get shot.

Finally, i have to question this idea that you may need to defend yourself against your own govt. This is the whole point of democracy. if you dont like your govt just vote em out! I have never come across a country where some kind of violent uprising has produced a more stable and fair system than the guys who were being over thrown. Usually things go from bad to worse

[Antigen]

www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/australias-a-lot-safer-than-we-think/2006/01/19/1137553708823.html?page=2

The above article looks at the growing culture of fear over here. Thought you may be interested.

Cool, thanks, I'll go and read that after I answer this:

I had a look at Bad trip's article. It was interesting. Perhaps guns do make the US more "polite" but it strikes me as an extreme way to do it.

I disagree. In fact, I think you've got it backward. Entrusting our most vital needs to government has prove, again and again, to be an extremely reckless thing to do. Here are a couple of quips from America's founding fathers:

"    Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? "
    -- Patrick Henry

"    If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves, then can they be trusted to govern others?"
    --Thomas Jefferson

The term "gun ban" is deceptive. We're not really banning guns at all. We're just relagating the right to bear and use them to law enforcement and the military via the legislation. Well you just go and check on these people's track record! Cops and soldiers are notorious for wife beating and other violent crimes and Congress is still the only distinctive criminal class in this land, just as they were in Samuel Clemens' day.

No, as much as I don't know about my next door neighbor or the stranger walking down the street, I trust them both more with a weapon than I do a cop. A cop brings a certain bigotry to every situation in which they're involved. There's a broadly held perception that law enforcement is a very dangerous line of work, but the OSHA stats don't bear that out. More dangerous than law enforcement are fishing, taxi driving and convenience store clerk. But no avocation is more dangerous than being a dark complected unarmed suspects in some places in this country. New York is bad, Cincinatti is probably worse, Florida's no place for a spunky young black boy to go wandering around without a camera crew in tow.

No, I don't trust the cops more than my neighbors. They don't care much for hippies either.

I also wonder if the reason for an increase in violent crime being recorded everywhere is because society had changed and women feel more comfortable reporting violent crime. Particularly domestic violence and sexual assault. If this is the case I dont think it is such a bad thing.

Yup.

I would also argue that if Australians are capable of beating the wife, getting into violent pub brawls (A long standing tradition in some parts) and generally beating the crap out of each other at a higher rate than you guys, then it is a good thing that we dont have as many guns to help us    :wink:

No, people tend not to let things heat up so often when there's very likely an armed drunk or three hanging around. Well armed = polite.

Also this article higlighted to me that in spite of Australia potentially being more violent we murder each other much less not out of any greater virtue but because we have less access to weapons.

I thought ya'll were just lazzy. ;-)

I would also wonder if good manners vary slightly from culture to culture. I can remeber when i was young and stupid being pulled over in the US for speeding & doing what everyone immediately does here and opening the car door to get out and talk with the cop. It was a valuable lesson in etiquette! The cop immediately put his hand on his gun and ordered me to remain within the vehicle. I was eventually berated for my stupidity by my American cohorts who (and i dont know if there was some poetic licence) told me that this was a good way to get shot.

Yup, like I said, the cops here are extremely paranoid. They're not really joking when they say things like "There are two kinds of people; officers and suspects."

Finally, i have to question this idea that you may need to defend yourself against your own govt. This is the whole point of democracy.

Well, glad you mentioned democracy. Sometimes it breaks down. Case in point, the Troubled Parent Industry. I've been involved in this nightmare for over 30 years now, since I was a little kid. Since I was around 6, I've had good reason to fear the cops who would bring kids back to the Seed or Straight without even entertaining the notion that maybe we has some damned good reasons for running away. And just look at where the principal players in Straight and the Seed have landed up! Charlie Crist, very likely a Seed graduate, is the GOP's nominee for Florida Governor. Brother Jeb Büsh (current governor, brother to the president) is tied nine ways from Sunday to the Program. Guy Tunnell, the guy who established Bay County Boot Camp, is affiliated with DFAF (formerly known as Straight, Inc.)  Bay County Boot Camp is where where guards beat 14yo Martin Lee Anderson to death last January, knowing they were being filmed. Martin's crime had been joy riding in his grandmother's car. The grandmother didn't want him locked up. The government insisted.

Yeah, I'd say we have good reason to fear our government over here! Here's some more on direct ties between the Program and our government. http://thestraights.com/gop.htm

if you dont like your govt just vote em out!

 :rofl: Ya' just gotta love that down under sense of humor! Oh, shit! You're serious!  Here's a nice intro the the state of Democracy in America today:
http://www.votefraud.org/

And, just for shits and giggles, try plugging this into google.com
+sembler vote fraud