Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Talk about a chilling experience
marcwordsmith:
Same with me, Greg. I actually did not read the whole book at the time, but I came across it shortly after The Seed, and I got the gist of what happened in the story (I knew Winston Smith had been tortured into submission, and that he'd cried "No, do it to Julia, not to me!" when confronted with his most profound fear, and that that was what broke him entirely), and I read that one passage I mentioned above, and it chilled me, because that was kind of how I felt. I felt nothing could restore what I had had with my friends, because I had betrayed them.
Glad I don't feel that way anymore. I'm good friends again with the guy who was my best friend before I went into The Seed.
I wonder sometimes about the limits of resilience. The Seed was incredibly abusive, and we were at such a tender age, so open and vulnerable and unprepared for The Seed's assault on our minds, but of course people have recovered from much worse.
The Seed, more than the book 1984, remains my personal standard for how twisted things can get, how words can so easily be perverted to mean their exact opposites. (Words like "love" and "honesty" and "empathy")
Greg, I know you remember when John Underwood posted here for a short period of time. After a while, I got tired of fighting with him in this forum--or not so much tired but just dubious about the value of it, and questioning myself for getting off on it. In the end, I stopped responding to him, though I was surprised how forgiving people were (including you, Greg!) when he apologized for that one totally insane (and downright nostalgic) "come down" ranting post of his, and he called it "degrading to you and me"--I was surprised no one called him on that. No one pointed out that it was, in fact, degrading to only one person. Sometimes I think back to that little window of opportunity I had to fight it out with John Underwood, and I wish I had taken it to its limit, though I'm still not sure what the value of it would have been . . . Oh well.
For the record, I also still believe he beat up Fuelaw, despite his sneering articulate denials. We know Underwood habitually minimized things ("So you had to sit in a drug rehab for a few months . . . boohoo") and lied, I believe (claiming the vast majority of Seedlings were there voluntarily--that CERTAINLY was not the case when I was there!) . . . and why would Fuelaw have had reason to lie?
Oh well, I confess it crosses my mind once in a while, that unfinished argument. Thought I'd take this random opportunity to get it off my chest. Thanks, as always, for providing the forum.
GregFL:
I hear you on that. I have a slightly different take on what occured.
First, John U is still philosophically entrenched in the Seed "ideal" even tho they personally showed him what seed "love" is really about. Just what level of commitment and compartmentalization does that take?
Personally, I wanted information, and I wanted his side of the story. To me there are unanswered questions still, and after talking to John U, as smarmy as he was, I realize that he didn't have the answers. His version of Seed history was/is rooted in the history that Art built, nursed and self-perpetuated, and John could not explain to my satisfaction Dupont and the Synanon influence. I don't think he knows, to be frank about it.
But I don't think anyone let him off the hook. He thought he could come waltzing in here and 'come down' on the people that would dare to question his revisionistic version of what happened in those stinking hot warehouses. He didn't. He couldn't. In the end sound argumentation and facts are what sent him tucking tail, and I enjoyed talking to him. In fact, I wish I could get more of the senior staffers to stop lurking and start posting.
For me, the encounter was totally sucessfull on all levels. I welcome John back here anytime for discussion on any Seed subject of his choice.
Bring it John.
For the record, I as well believe Fuelaw was abused at the seed. Hell, I know I was. However, I wasn't as brave as the little 12 year old Fuelaw was so I didn't get the direct confrontations by those large adult men. Frankly, I was too terrified to put myself in the direct line of fire of those 22 year old tyrants and miscreants.
So I silently suffered. The kids like Fuelaw that stood up and argued with them were my private heroes, and I felt so weak and almost never forgave myself for the self-betrayal that I played into.
The guys that vehemently deny the abusive modalities have warped their mind into believing that grabbing a 12 year old boy by the arm, yanking him up, taking him into a backroom and calling him names with spittle flying out of the corner of their mouth was saving his life and helping him. That poking and prodding 13 year old girls in the back for daring to nod off after 12 hour marathon 'raps' and then oral and written confessionals at the 'host home', 4 hours of sleep, and then back to the seed for PB&Y sandwiches and sexual confessional talks was valuable and theraputic. That making kids feign 'motivation' to get called on whilst knowing that in the hearts of those kids was really gripping overwhelmingly terrifying fear of a confrontation if they did get called on was necessary to "save their lives". That making kids scream "im coming home" and running across the room to their mothers, but only after being held against his/her will,broken of spirit, and rebuilt in the image of the seed group all for the crime of 'druggie behavior' was beneficial and necessary. That making virginal boys go to boy's rap and confess to being virgins in front of all the older boys, only to be left standing up and humiliated and berated about being a 'punk' and told that he would be raped in prison was good for his development... that confessing to long lists of drug use and criminal behavior in front of community leaders, teachers, and the press was a beneficial thing for the future of children...the list just goes on and on.
they are committed to this self-deception because facing it calls into question the entire Seed fantasy they have built in their mind. It also would cause them to question their own actions during that strange piece of americana...the early 70s Seed.
As far as forgiving him for the "come down on you" thread...of course!
I can't think of anything better than a former staffer spontaneously engaging others in a "come down on ya" like it held any significance in real life ... in response to engaging and thought provoking criticism of his beloved *program* and then having him apologize for that behavior. He should have also apologized for 30 years ago, IMO. I asked him to, but it was his choice not to.
"degrading to you and me". He may have said that, but he was wrong on the former, and spot-on on the latter. It isn't magically degrading *now* but wonderfully magically theraputic *then*. It is much worse *then* when people were held against their will and physically unable to stop the attacks and not voluntary participants in the conversations. Somewhere in that mind of his, maybe he gets that.
Marc, go back and read that thread, and the others that John participated in. If you still think he was lobbed softballs, I want to hear about it. Not that it really matters now because we all kind of dealt with John U showing up in our own ways and in the final analysis, I think that is what was important.
Thanks for the kudos on the forum, but I want to thank you for that inspiring and thought provoking article you wrote about your personal experiences in the seed.
You are a talented and articluate writer and your participation here is always appreciated.
marcwordsmith:
Love you, Greg!
(I mean, you know, in a grateful sort of way. Not in The Seed sense . . . oh man, see what I mean about perversion of language????)
And it was this forum that inspired me to put together my article by the way. I don't know if I ever mentioned that.
marcwordsmith:
by the way, by and large, I don't think JU was lobbed softballs, but I thought his "apology" post contained more sanctimony than remorse, and as I said, I was surprised no one called him on the "degrading to you and me" business. I should have done it myself, since it bugged me at the time.
Antigen:
Hear, hear!
::cheers::
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