More bullshit advice from ST

[ZenAgent]

If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

[psy]

If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

The parralells are striking.

How many unknown prisons do the CIA have?
How many programs stay under the radar?

Both use dodgy third world countries to dodge the law.
Both seem to find a way around inspection.
Both deny basic human rights.
Both claim their prisoners deserve it.
Both create powerful propoganda.

Both prisoners and students are there under dodgy pretences.
Both prisoners and students are denied fair representation.
Both prisoners and students are denied unfiltered outside contact.
Both prisoners and students undergo sleep deprivation.
Both prisoners and students are regularly humiliated.

The difference?  The public gives a fuck about the people in Gitmo.

[Anonymous]

If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

The parralells are striking.

How many unknown prisons do the CIA have?
How many programs stay under the radar?

Both use dodgy third world countries to dodge the law.
Both seem to find a way around inspection.
Both deny basic human rights.
Both claim their prisoners deserve it.
Both create powerful propoganda.

Both prisoners and students are there under dodgy pretences.
Both prisoners and students are denied fair representation.
Both prisoners and students are denied unfiltered outside contact.
Both prisoners and students undergo sleep deprivation.
Both prisoners and students are regularly humiliated.

The difference?  The public gives a fuck about the people in Gitmo.

Spot on.

I really do wonder why libtards care more about foreign adults than our own children, though.  :cry:

[AtomicAnt]

The 'Libtards' are simply not aware this goes on. Nobody I have talked to in person is aware these things go on in the USA and many I discuss the subject with simply think I'm wrong. They believe if these treatments really happened, law enforcement and angry parents would haves stopped it a long time ago.

But then again, the same people never heard of these guys, just up the Parkway:

Twelve Tribes, also known as The Community of Believers or the Messianic Community

http://www.cephasministry.com/the_twelv ... _sect.html

http://www.cultnews.com/?cat=145

[Anonymous]

If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

The parralells are striking.

How many unknown prisons do the CIA have?
How many programs stay under the radar?

Both use dodgy third world countries to dodge the law.
Both seem to find a way around inspection.
Both deny basic human rights.
Both claim their prisoners deserve it.
Both create powerful propoganda.

Both prisoners and students are there under dodgy pretences.
Both prisoners and students are denied fair representation.
Both prisoners and students are denied unfiltered outside contact.
Both prisoners and students undergo sleep deprivation.
Both prisoners and students are regularly humiliated.

The difference?  The public gives a fuck about the people in Gitmo.

Spot on.

I really do wonder why libtards care more about foreign adults than our own children, though.  :cry:

[Anonymous]

If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

The parralells are striking.

How many unknown prisons do the CIA have?
How many programs stay under the radar?

Both use dodgy third world countries to dodge the law.
Both seem to find a way around inspection.
Both deny basic human rights.
Both claim their prisoners deserve it.
Both create powerful propoganda.

Both prisoners and students are there under dodgy pretences.
Both prisoners and students are denied fair representation.
Both prisoners and students are denied unfiltered outside contact.
Both prisoners and students undergo sleep deprivation.
Both prisoners and students are regularly humiliated.

The difference?  The public gives a fuck about the people in Gitmo.

Spot on.

I really do wonder why libtards care more about foreign adults than our own children, though.  :cry:

You don't know what you are talking about; it ain't the "libtards": the majority of of people who make money off of these places are neoconartist radical psuedo-"conservative" Republicans who contribute enormous amounts of money to the people in power who make sure enormous amounts of tax dollars are funneled into their programs.  Its the guys behind the Gitmo abuses that sponsor the institutionalized child abuse here at home.  Ditto for most of the parents who send their kids off, especially the so-called "Christian" ones, you know the ones that have the Big Guy in the Sky pissed.  No true liberal, progressive, libertarian or sane person would even consider it.  Abuse is abuse and it should not be allowed ANYWHERE; here or abroad so pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze, you are beginning to sound like Ann Coulter.

[psy]

Everybody thinks i couldn't happen.  It's kind of funny becuase it IS happening.

Nobody believed what was happening to the Jews in WWII becuase it was just too horrible to believe somebody would do that.  There were photos, and survivors pleading for international aid.  The US Dept. of State KNEW what was happening and did nothing.  When the red cross came to inspect a "concentration camp" they were shown Tereisenstadt. An elaborate hoax put on to make them look good.  You wonder if Gitmo is the same type of thing considering it's the only "official" prison (and nobody of importance was ever put there).

People said that mass murder on such a scale could never happen in secret.  And yet it DID.  The world has got to wake the fuck up and realize that there are a lot of fucked up people out there.  Sociologist Stanley Milgram showed that, when given unethical orders by superiors, most complied.  Combine this with the tendency of people doing these types of things to convince themselves that they are doing "the right thing", and you end up with a lot of dead or permanantly scarred people.

To be fair, I have no idea what goes on in the secret CIA prisons in eastern europe, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.  But if it's all "kosher" than why not let things be out in the open?  Clearly the question is hypothetical since Joe CIA Interrogator knows he can do whatever he wants.  Nobody knows what is going on in those places (which is exactly how the Germans kept it until the Russians started turning up concentration camps.)  Since there is no force that can remotely compare with US might, we will probably never know what happened / is happening to those people.

We have the same situation with programs and history is repeating itself as it always predictably does. Skeptical parents and the public at large believe somehow that everybody is inherantly good.

As always, if it's not good TV, the media, liberal, conservative, or whatever, will not give a shit.  Jon Benet Ramsey got weeks of airtime since it made good TV.  Nobody cares about some fucked up druggies who would probably be dead-or-in-jail.  It's the perception that matters to the media, not the truth.  It's much easier to harp on something inane than it is to actually debate the rights and wrongs of things or attempt to change people's views.  With the attention span of the average boob in front of the TV, how hard do you think it would be to explain exactly how programs work, to explain to people how this could happen.

Stop bitching about politics. Both sides of the political spectrum are fucked up and opportunistic.  They just have different masters.  The ones in power are usually worse becuase (guess what?) power corrupts.  It happens with every party in every system.  I have no idea why people feel the need to politically define themselves with only two directions to pick.  Fuck the left AND the right.  Think for yourself.

[ZenAgent]

I've looked around a bit to see if Amnesty International has been involved with the complaints surrounding programs.  Perhaps I've not looked enough, but I'm coming up with nothing in the way of AI's policies regarding child detainment and torture, although I know they would be enraged.  This seems like an American disease, something that afflicts the wealthy parents who are "important in the community with an image to maintain", and troubled kids are an embarassment.  The Important parents don't have the time to spend working with the kids, and those program websites that promise to return your juvenile "half-baked" pizza fresh and hot after some hellish re-cooking (thanks, TB documentary), make parents desperate to believe it.  As PSY points out, the results are quite often a broken, paranoid kid who can't form relationships due to a lack of ability to trust others.  I know it does nothing to repair the family "rifts", but I'm of the opinion that a lawsuit allows the former patient to make a statement to the parent who demanded the program:  Your program failed, it did not make me love and respect you, I suffered and now there is no facility saying I'm manipulating you.  One hope, I guess, is the parent would realize that if their own child would file suit against them, it would convince them they were wrong to snatch their teenager and lock them in a facility that basically babysat and humiliated, physically tortured and overmedicated what should have been their main priority in this world, their kids.

[psy]

I've looked around a bit to see if Amnesty International has been involved with the complaints surrounding programs.  Perhaps I've not looked enough, but I'm coming up with nothing in the way of AI's policies regarding child detainment and torture, although I know they would be enraged.  This seems like an American disease, something that afflicts the wealthy parents who are "important in the community with an image to maintain", and troubled kids are an embarassment.  The Important parents don't have the time to spend working with the kids, and those program websites that promise to return your juvenile "half-baked" pizza fresh and hot after some hellish re-cooking (thanks, TB documentary), make parents desperate to believe it.  As PSY points out, the results are quite often a broken, paranoid kid who can't form relationships due to a lack of ability to trust others.  I know it does nothing to repair the family "rifts", but I'm of the opinion that a lawsuit allows the former patient to make a statement to the parent who demanded the program:  Your program failed, it did not make me love and respect you, I suffered and now there is no facility saying I'm manipulating you.  One hope, I guess, is the parent would realize that if their own child would file suit against them, it would convince them they were wrong to snatch their teenager and lock them in a facility that basically babysat and humiliated, physically tortured and overmedicated what should have been their main priority in this world, their kids.

Given the choice between getting out of program early or staying til the end (but getting to sue for it) which one do you think I would have picked.

Suing the parents for revenge is petty and does nothing to help the kids who are still in program.  Money cannot heal the wounds these programs inflict.

What statement do you really think it would make(if in the unlikely event such a suit were sucessful)?  The first thing posted on ST would be "Ungrateful Child Sues Parent for Trying to Help".  Programs would simply lock down communication between parent and child even further.

From my perspective, the appropriate response is to make sure it never happens to anybody again by choosing a better target to sue.  Yes programs crawl back out of the woodwork like cockroaches, but with all the student's testimony, i think it makes a much louder noise (and is more likely to affect parents in a positive manner).

I'm not necessarily saying "don't sue the parent."  If a parent truly knows what is going on, and does nothing, they should be left as miserable as possable.  However, as i said, revenge heals nothing.  Helping others just might.

[ZenAgent]

If you knew the type of parent I'm dealing with, you would encourage the child to sue.  This is all an ego trip, with the intention of destroying the one child who had the guts to stand up to him and say "no more".  The child's reward was an abusive wilderness/boot camp.  We have no intention of allowing the child to stay until she finishes the program just so she can sue.  I can't give you all the details of what this demonic fuck parent has done, but it would shock even you.

[psy]

If you knew the type of parent I'm dealing with, you would encourage the child to sue.  This is all an ego trip, with the intention of destroying the one child who had the guts to stand up to him and say "no more".  The child's reward was an abusive wilderness/boot camp.  We have no intention of allowing the child to stay until she finishes the program just so she can sue.  I can't give you all the details of what this demonic fuck parent has done, but it would shock even you.

I can believe it.  And if he's truly as you say, I hope he suffers for it.  I realize the dangers of legal action prior to program ending but if I were in her situation I would risk anything to get out.  The program I was in (CEDU clone) only tortured us psychologically (though they phsyically strained us).  The place your daughter is in sounds like it does a whole full range of service.

If you can get a message to her, tell her that you are working on getting her out.  It will give her hope, which is probably the best thing you can do for her directly at this point.  I can't emphasize enough how much doing that would help her.

Programs suck the hope out of you.  You feel like there is nobody on your side, like not even your parents care, like you have been abandoned.  You learn to rely exclusively on yourself becuase your own head is the only private place left (and even that they manage to eventually break into).  Giving her hope will help prevent that from happening, and if it already has, it might help her realize that there actually is somebody who cares.

In my program, we were told by a staff member "if your parents really cared about you they wouldn't have sent you here."  At least in my case, when I thought my parents didn't care, it was an illusion created by the program, which faded away when i realized we were all lied to.  I don't quite know how she is going to deal it.

When she gets out, i would suggest letting her decide who to sue.  After all, she suffered through it.  I would hope that she would decide to help those in program, but i can understand the desire for revenge as well (especially against such a person.)  Then again, she could always sue her father, and then use the money to take on the program (which is probably loaded).

[Troll Control]

To:  "Jena Martin"
CC: [email protected]
   
Gee, Jena, I have really nowhere to go with this, do I?  It's unfortunate that you choose to stereotype me based on your false assumptions about my education.  It is a shame that someone who is in the business of moderating internet fora could be so obtuse about the facts.
 
I think what you have presented is simply an awkward attempt to justify the behaviors of others in an effort to discriminate agianst me.  It is unfortunate that you would be this way, especially for someone in your position of moderator, whom one would assume would be objective and even-handed.  Sadly, you are neither objective nor even-handed.
 
It is noteworthy to mention that one of the posters you favored with leniency, WillieNelson, has only a few posts to his/her credit - several are vituperous personal attacks against me and Katfish - and is not a "long time poster" as you describe below.  Your quote: "New posters who immediately begin to post inappropriately are banned."  This is an obvious prevarication and is completely false.  Within his/her first dozen posts WillieNelson made nasty comments about both Katfish and me, yet, I suppose not surprisingly, you broke your own stated policy and allowed Willie to continue posting as well as allowing the insults to remain on the board.  Can you explain why you are willing to break your own stated policy as long as the poster in question is attacking someone who you disagree with?  I'd like to hear the answer.
 
Why would you choose not to be truthful about your motivations, Jena?  Clearly, you did not "nudge" a "frequent poster" to toe the line, rather, you gave blanket acceptance for the reprehensible garbage of a new poster who espouses your belief system.  This is quite obviously a decision based on politics over substance.  I hope you can see that, but my hopes are most likely misplaced.
 
Obviously, Jena, by your own words, you have discriminated against me because you believe I don't agree with you.  This is the hallmark of small-minded people.  Simply because you have the ability to shut off discussion not to your liking, you have prohibited me from posting, but the person who "did it first" (by your own admission), continues to be showered with your acceptance.  Jena, you are are a hypocrite.
 
I see, as you stated, your reputation means nothing to you and this is buttressed by your blatant discrimination against those who do not believe as you do.
 
Your father must be very proud of raising a hypocritical bigot, Jena.
 
Good luck.  I hope in the future your heart will be opened to tolerance, as we have enough prejudiced people in the world already.
 
Take care.
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Jena Martin wrote:

(forwarded exchange to daddy, Lon)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

To: Jena Martin
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 9:57:43 AM
Subject: Re: Your Posts at Strugglingteens.com


Jena,
 
My behavior was to respond in kind to epithets hurled at me by two other posters.  I will be glad to provide evidence for my claims, but I cannot post those studies or my rebuttal of other studies due to the fact that you selectively censored me.  Given the oppportunity, I will provide ample evidence to support my assertions.  That should be the end of that discussion.
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Jena editorializes:

You may provide that evidence of the studies to me and I will restore those posts.  Here is your opportunity and if you actually had the evidence, or actually wished to present it, you would be sending all that along.  Since you aren't, I must conclude that no such evidence exists or you do not wish to back up your claims with facts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

However, you still have not removed posts that are degrading to me and to the user Katfish, choosing insted to allow other posters to degrade us and our character with absolutely no evidence, only their own personal assumptions (which, you have made quite clear to me, the board does not allow) and ad hominem fallacies.  Jena, please tell me why you have chosen to selectively censor me while giving a free pass to obvious violaters of your policies.  This behavior illustrates exactly the point I made in my first post:  your site has an agenda to quash any and all information that doesn't support your foregone conclusions about behavioral health care.
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Jena editorializes:
 
You resorted to posting nothing but trash as soon as someone challeneged your claims by asking for cites of what you posted.  I took out the trash.  That is pretty simple.
 
If you find some posts degrading to you, then perhaps you would be better served by not reading them.  
 
Do not attempt to pull Katfish into your arguments.  Katfish has been on the forums for quite some time and is successful in saying what she wants to say.  She is successful because she posts in a mature, responsible fashion.  If you really want to say what you want to say, then perhaps you should take a lesson from her, rather than trying to drag her into the mess you created.
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You may wish to treat me as a child and "box me in" with your insistence that only my behavior is subject to scrutiny, but you have irreparably damaged you own image and credibility by so doing.  If you cannot see this, then maybe you should have someone who is capable of neutrality moderate your discussion forum.
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Jena editorializes:

My "image" is not something I am worried about.  Your thoughts on my credibility do not keep me up at night.  It is my policy to warn long time posters if they edge over the line.  Long term posters have established themselves by following the rules for a long time.  Warning them is appropriate.  New posters who immediately begin to post inappropriately are banned.  New posters who flame from the beginning make it clear that their agenda is to disrupt the forums and I will not tolerate that.
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I am hereby officially requesting that you restore my account and discipline users mose and WillieNelson for attacking other posters.  Your failure to do so will cement the notion that StrugglingTeens is a shill for the program industry that is incapable of fair, level, grounded debate of the facts.
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Jena editorializes:

Wow, is that a jump to conclusions, but such jumps are common in those who seek to prove their agenda, regardless of the facts.  
 
I still have no cites to back up your claims.
You have not given an adequate explanation for posting your own trash, other than  a juvenile "They did it first!".
You have not given any kind of indication that you will not immediately repeat your offending behavior once restored.
 
I officially decline to restore your posting privledges.
 
  I would hope that a parent would have more maturity, but then there are no requirements for parenthood, other than the possession of the appropriate organs, so I guess I can't expect too much there.
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Jena Martin wrote:
NonProphet,
 
Your behavior resulted in the actions taken against you.  If you wish to discuss your behavior, I will be happy to do so.
 
Jena Martin
Forum Moderator


----- Original Message ----

To: Jena Martin
Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2006 6:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: Your Posts at Strugglingteens.com


I'm assuming the posters "WillieNelson" and "mose" have been similarly banned?
 
They did absolutely nothing but attack me and make various insults and assumptions.  I never got to speak to the issues because mose and Willie jacked the thread with personal insults.
 
Why are you disciplining me, but not them?  I don't understand the double-standard.
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Jena Martin wrote:
Dear Non Prophet,
 
I have edited or removed numerous posts from the Strugglingteens.com forums.  They are copied below.
 
There were various reasons for editing or removing them, including hostile personal attacks and inflammatory posts. Those posts are gone forever.
 
You made claims regarding studies and research.  You were asked to provide the cites for those studies by other posters.  Now I am asking.  If you can provide the cites, I will restore those posts, with the cites included.  If you cannot provide cites, I will assume that these posts are nothing but inflammatory rhetoric, with no validity in fact and they will not be restored.
 
  You claim to have much experience with programs.  I would be interested to know exactly what it is that you are a practioner of, and what your experience is, regarding teen help programs.  I have found that credible "practioners" or those with experience within the teen help industry are very forthcoming with their creditentials and history.  If you can provide more information I may restore some of these posts.
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Your ability to post messages on the Strugglingteens.com forum has been removed.  This was done as your posts continued to descend into a tirad of tiresome personal attacks.  It is a shame too, because I think there have been some good discussions on the forums recently from dissenters of programs.  These discussions are always welcome, when they are conducted with courtesy and respect.  You are not conducting yourself as such, hence your removal from the forums.
 
It is possible to debate and discuss these issues in a civilized manner.  I do think that they are important topics that need to be addressed, yet sadly so many who attempt to bring them to Strugglingteens.com, do so in such a manner as yourself.  It doesn't work and it stifles discussion and leads to further ignorance and misunderstandings.  I think that is a shame, but I will not allow these forums to be over-run with trolls and flame wars.
 
Jena Martin
Forum Moderator
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Yes you will, Jena.  You will allow anyone who shares your beliefs to troll relentlessly and to personally slam any poster who disagrees with you.

I wonder if those morons Willie and Mose know that you use them as unwitting tools, Jena?  I guess it's a good job for both of them because they are tools after all.....

Now we know why little Jena won't discipline "WillieNelson."  WillieNelson is none other than KARENINDALLAS!!!

I guess Nashville IS "way up north" if you're from Texas, huh, Willie - er...Karen?

Karen stoops to new lows here.  I thought it couldn't get any worse for you, Karen, but here we are...

[Anonymous]

New posters who immediately begin to post inappropriately are banned

Define "inappropriate" Jena.  Anything contradictory?  Bad for business?  TRUE?

[Anonymous]

Just provide her with the appropriate citations and be done with it.

[Anonymous]

Just provide her with the appropriate citations and be done with it.