Author Topic: I used to hate people. but now...  (Read 12923 times)

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Offline Antigen

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I used to hate people. but now...
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2006, 12:12:30 AM »
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
NOW, comparing this case with that of men who beat to death the kid in the Florida Boot camp not so long ago is an entirely different case. These men were caught on film, MURDERING, a child. Christ Almighty watch the video it looks like they were walking off later to go get a cold beer for a job well done or something. At least that was my take on it.


See, I pitty them all the more. And I fear them all the more. What I saw happening in that video was just about exactly the same thing I saw in group when we/they restrained a misbehaver. The only difference was luck. Just stupid luck that they kept on seeing a malingerer instead of an unconcious kid till it was too damned late. Could very easily have happened to me or right in front of me in Straight. Only dumb luck made the difference.

Yeah, I have deep sympathy for someone who's so estranged from their own perceptions and reality to participate in something like that and still not see the connection. Doesn't mean we can afford to let them live. Just that I feel sorry for the poor, morally bankrupt, soulless bastards.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Deborah

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I used to hate people. but now...
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2006, 12:45:22 AM »
***i went to the chardonnay school of socialism so i can't see the benefits of charging the middle and upper classes so much in either rent or tax that they have a significantly reduced disposable income. This leds to recession which amounts to reduced quality of life for all.

Stricitly a rhetorical comment. Would never happen.
I can't imagine how a living wage would harm the economy.
Even at middle income, how would you feel about paying 51% of your income for housing?
Those earning more should pay more tax, their fair share, at minimum.
I'm a single self employed woman and pay more tax than my sil who earns probably six times what I do.
Next time I feel resentment about that, I'll try to remember that I must sacrifice to save all the middle incomers from discomfort of recession. No big deal for the poor. They live in recession.
The whole class structure and fear of poverty is one of the primary reason we have teen warehouses. Parents are terrified their kid won't end up in the right college, will end up working class or poor, and god forbid, dependent on them for any financial assistance.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2006, 01:12:03 AM »
Deborah-  doctors charge "exorbitant" fees so that they can cover  the cost of their malpractice insurance, which is so high as a result of so many frivilous lawsuits, as well as legitimate and quasi-legitimate lawsuits demanding "exorbitant" amounts of money.

In fact, malpractice rates are so high, many doctors cannot afford to practice.  There is now a shortage of obstetricians, as many doctors refuse to practice OB now (they just practice GYN rather than OBGYN),  because the risk of lawsuit and the malpractice rates are just too high.

And because of all these lawsuits, health care providers are forced to spend less time at the bedside because we have to document, document, document, this and that and this and that, and fill out this form and that form, just to fullfill JCAHO requirements and make sure our asses are covered in the event of a lawsuit.  

Why are you so angry at doctors?

FYI, most doctors I know work for hospitals, and make only about $100K a year, maybe 120K.  This is after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, and 3 years of 100-hour workweeks of grunt work as a resident.

Unless a doctor can come up with some new, high-tech procedure, they do not make huge amounts of money.

Surgeons, in addition to 8 years of school, go through a 7 year residency program, just to be a general surgeon.  If they want to specialize in something (like bypass surgery), thats several additional years of training.  

Talk about "delaying gratification".

And may I point out that doctors, do, in fact, save lives, and they do so every day.  And they certainly do have effective treatments for many disease.  I'm a nurse, okay, I see this shit first hand all the time.      

I don't think you know the first thing about doctors and the practice of medicine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
egan Flynn
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Offline bandit1978

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I used to hate people. but now...
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2006, 01:18:20 AM »
The reason teachers, and social workers, and nurses don't get paid well is because those jobs are traditionally held by women.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
egan Flynn
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2006, 03:40:28 AM »
Quote from: Deborah
***i went to the chardonnay school of socialism so i can't see the benefits of charging the middle and upper classes so much in either rent or tax that they have a significantly reduced disposable income. This leds to recession which amounts to reduced quality of life for all.

Strictly a rhetorical comment. Would never happen.
 Well of course it was rhetorical to an extent. If the minimum wage was increased significantly by govt mandate though but the tax rate remained the same, it would create a living wage. I dont really know what the tax rate is in the US. Here the middle class (40-75k bracket ) shoulder a fairly high tax burden in comparison to brackets higher & lower. As you point out i dont think it is unreasonable because it does not have a major impact on my life but i do think those in the bracket above me should shoulder more of the burden & those who earn below my bracket less.
As to why parents put their kids in programmes, I had the impression from many of the kids who post that it was about control over behaviour more than fear of poverty. I can certainly see how this would be a factor though. How would a parent reconcile spending the money that would normally go into a college fund with this idea? (not counting those rich enough to do both)

To three springs comments about health care, i have a question? Do all states have some kind of public health systems? I can see the benefits of health care being taken over by the states in a country that large because a more localised system is more accessable to those who need it. I was under the impression that almost all healthcare was private in the US?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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I used to hate people. but now...
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2006, 10:16:44 AM »
Megan,
We've had this discussion before.
Remember when you defended that C Sections were only performed in emergency situations? Since that time there have been 6 more births in our circle of 30-something friends. Not one was a vaginal birth. Every one planned C Section. Vaginal births are a rarity.
And what will be the excuse now that Bush has all but done away with medical malpractice suits? Woops, cut off the wrong tit. Oh well, you'll adjust. Sorry 'bout that double mastectomy. We really thought you had cancer. I think you'll find that reconstruction is now very affordable.

In case you've forgotten my position on the Medical Establishment.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... tary#65854
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ion#175368
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... rth#204974
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... enic#72562
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ary#142109
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... tary#72492
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ine#207285
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ine#178318
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... pel#103365
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2006, 10:35:50 AM »
***If the minimum wage was increased significantly by govt mandate though but the tax rate remained the same, it would create a living wage.

I disagree. First, the MW is not going to be raised by Fed gov't mandate, and even if it were, it would not be sufficient to constitute a LW. The LW is adopted voluntarily by cities and only a few businesses are required to pay it. Second, the tax system needs to be adjusted, period. Those earning below a LW should pay no tax, imo.

***As to why parents put their kids in programmes, I had the impression from many of the kids who post that it was about control over behaviour more than fear of poverty. I can certainly see how this would be a factor though. How would a parent reconcile spending the money that would normally go into a college fund with this idea? (not counting those rich enough to do both)

Correct. Behavior is the key factor. But behavior, in the majority of cases, includes not attending school, being expelled from school, "risking their academic future". Some kids are placed solely for this reason. The line the program my son attended used, "Cash in the college fund. They may not get to college without a TBS." That's how some reconcile it. If you read ST you see plenty of parents concerned about their kids academic/financial future.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2006, 10:39:22 AM »
The majority of ST posts are complete bunk. Don't base anything real on what's said there.
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Offline Anonymous

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Teacher Pay
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2006, 10:59:30 AM »
The teachers' salaries listed DO indicate underpayment.   Teachers are required to have a B.A., a credential, and now often a Master's in addition to keeping up with classes on the side as requirements continually change.  There are very few professions in which such an educated person would make only $40k.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2006, 02:04:31 PM »
A bit off topic, but about the whole 'parents are afraid of their kid ending up impoverished so they locked 'em up' excuse does not fly with me. I don't think that is the reason at all why parents use these camps, however, I do believe by that statement even showing up it says something about those parents. It's not that the parent is scared of their child being poor, what is there to be scared for? If you work at McDonalds you still eat, have a place to sleep (even if its with four roomates), and being a working class stiff does not regulate your life to misery, hardly. In my opinion, these parents are truly concerned with how their child's downward economic mobility will embarass the family and parents. Some of these parents view their children as an extension of themselves, something to be trained and showed like a prized horse, to impress their rich parents friends (and themselves).
One tip for kids with parents like this... leave the day you turn 18 and don't look back and don't let them blackmail you with a car/rent/college money  -- you will regret it forever!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2006, 07:13:36 PM »
For some parents, it's a last resort in a desparate attempt to save a life. Fault them for being uniformed about abuse and about the ineffectiveness of "treatment" at a TBS. Fault them for their many failures as parents. But some of these parents aren't really thinking too much about school or saving their child's academic career and/or their child's prospects for pursuing the American Dream. Some of them are more worried that the next trip to the ER is going to be followed by a trip to the morgue.

While you're at it, fault our wonderful societal and governmental institutions that put so little emphasis or money into mental health care or real substance abuse treatment, and that prefer to blame the victim for his or her "moral failings" that got them to where they are. Our society would rather throw kids away, blame them for their problems and lock them up, rather than offer them any real solutions or any real hope for the future. Desperate parents do desperate and sometimes foolish things, all with the best intentions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2006, 07:22:06 PM »
Quote
[Some of them are more worried that the next trip to the ER is going to be followed by a trip to the morgue.


That's a frightening selling point, but the reality is that is only true in a small minority of kids sent to programs. If a kid was in that kind of immediate danger, they belong in an acute psychiatric care environment. From the several facilities I was at, I would say the large majority are there for minor reasons, and many as a result of their parents dysfunction, not their own.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2006, 07:44:36 PM »
Quote
That's a frightening selling point, but the reality is that is only true in a small minority of kids sent to programs. If a kid was in that kind of immediate danger, they belong in an acute psychiatric care environment. From the several facilities I was at, I would say the large majority are there for minor reasons, and many as a result of their parents dysfunction, not their own.


Which is why a court proceeding should be required, with legal representation for the kid, before any kid could ever be committed against his or her will. Like in the state of Washington. There is no excuse for a human being to be institutionalized for "minor reasons" or because of their parents' failures.

And any such "programs" -- TBS, RTC, WC, etc. -- should be heavily regulated and supervised by truly independent authorities, to make sure the inmates' rights are protected and that something that at least has the potential to be "therapeutic" is being offered. That would cause most of them to be shut down in an instant, and the Stuggling Parents would be able to make a more rational choice and avoid being conned.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2006, 09:33:28 PM »
Second, the tax system needs to be adjusted, period. Those earning below a LW should pay no tax, imo.

I would agree with this. Do you guys have a tax free threshhold? Or does everyone who earns any kind of private living have to pay tax? or does it vary from state to state?
I have read struggling teens from time to time largely to try & understand what compels people to send thier kids to programmes. The mix seems to be between parents whose kids according to the posts are in a lot of trouble & those who send their kids for fairly benign rsns. Someone mentioned the fact that there is an embarrasment factor. I think they are probably on to something big there.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2006, 10:44:35 PM »
Re: Tax
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

Embarrassment is a key issue, which includes embarrassment about one's kid not being accepted to/attending the right college. I think this is more true for those who select the more expensive "college prep" (in name only) programs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700