Author Topic: Wilderness program effectiveness  (Read 14408 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Wilderness program effectiveness
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 11:32:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-07 18:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-07 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Wow, I just did the same search and didn't find any real evidence (from actually independent sources) that these places work..."




Get a new computer, use a new search engine, or read down more than two listings.



Also, please explain why the argument of research "proving" negative impact isn't challenged for proof of existance - because that surely isn't there."



This one pertains to confrontational therapy.
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm

This one refers to bootcamps specifically but as we all know many of the same emotional, if not physical tactics are used in wilderness programs, emotional growth schools, BMs, RTCs etc. etc. etc.

http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm


So, since these places are claiming the efficacy of their programs shouldn't the burden be on them to provide research that proves their methods?   We shouldn't have to prove that it does damage (even though we clearly can) if you can't even prove it works at all.
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Offline michelle sutton memorial

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Wilderness program effectiveness
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 11:59:00 PM »
I have been up against the controversy surrounding wilderness programs since my daughter, Michelle, died in one.

Wilderness programs are as good as the people selling them.  It's a Buyer Beware, lucrative Industry.  

There are those who will say a wilderness program saved their life.  And, there are those who will say a wilderness program tarnished their life.  It is my opinion the ones who had a good experience were "lucky."  There are NO laws in place to protect the children.  Well, I take it back, there are two federal laws that should protect children in wilderness programs, but they are not being enforced.  There is NO screening process in place.  The wilderness industry is known for being a one size fits all experience.  The industry has earned the reputation of accepting any child, and their parents money.  One has to ask themselves, "How much does it cost for lentils, beans, rice, oatmeal, raisins, etc."  Why are these programs so expensive?  The overhead is minimal.

I experienced firsthand what can go wrong within the wilderness experience.  I know what to look out for now.  It's too late for my daughter.  It's not too late for others.

Who are these people who are out in the middle of the desert with the children?  The counselor who was with my daughter filled out an application prior to employment.  For position desired, he put...."slave."  We later learned through our lawsuit discovery that the counselor who was 'sold' to us as a highly trained survival expert, was in fact an ex-felon.  

When a California, Court-Adjudicated Youth, died in the Vision Quest program, Arizona, I began looking into this industry as well.  I found the same fatal flaws existed in both privately owned lucrative industries.  The only difference between the two is, how the child is sent, and where the money comes from.

In the privately owned Court-Adjudicated Industry, we the tax payers, and the state the child resides in fund the program.  In the privately owned Wildernesss Program, insurance companies and the parents fund the program.

One has to ask, "how much do the counselors get paid to live out in the middle of the boonies for weeks on end with these children."  Vision Quest is known for advertising in local newspapers for their hired help.  I understand they pay their counselors minimum wage to travel with the wagon train.  One has to ask, "what kind of help is willing to work for minimum wage and live out in the boonies."  Vision Quest is known to have qualified teachers working with the youth.  But, the so-called counselors have been known to abuse the children.  

Where both entities fall short is with the level of expectation and quality of care.

All too often, transient, untrained, underqualified individuals are allowed to take children out into the desert for "treatment."  Who's watching the children?  Who's watching the industry?

The problem is, there is NO law to say what happened to these children is against the law.  It's legal child abuse in the name of help and therapy.  The wilderness/boot camp industry has earned the reputation that we are talking about on this thread.  I believe the industry should stand up and be measured by supporting Congressman George Miller with the passing of bill 1738, to "End Institutionalized Child Abuse."
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Offline Deborah

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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Wilderness program effectiveness
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2006, 12:28:00 PM »
Confrontational therapy, particularly of the type used in boot camps, is not the same thing as the approach used in many wilderness programs.  Sure, some places may use it, but not all places are good.  Also, at some level, confrontation is a part of life, if only at the very mild level of gently reminding someone of something they avoid or otherwise put off.  That is quite different from an in-your-face shouting.

A generalized assertion that this talks about A but really pertains to D ought to be made more specific.  What specific emotional and physical tactics of boot camps are used in the good wilderness programs, and in what way does use of them there differ from what a licensed mental health practitioner or school teacher might use?

"So, since these places are claiming the efficacy of their programs shouldn't the burden be on them to provide research that proves their methods?"  BUT when they provide the research, you claim it is tainted since they provided or arranged for it.  And for the research from the non-industry journals cited, I've not read a counter here.

"We shouldn't have to prove that it does damage (even though we clearly can) if you can't even prove it works at all."  Same song!  To the extent there is proof of anything, is would seem to be in the research papers, of which the few cited are so far awaiting a counter made with like reviewability.  The poster whose assertions prompted the original entry in this thread said there was proof of damage from the therapeutic approach [which excludes accidental injuries just as schools provide phys.ed. classes even though kids might get hurt], but hasn't provided it in any recognizable comparable form.

The good programs in the industry are dominated by the idea that society as a whole has certain standards of expected conduct, and that clear expectations and an understanding that decisions have consequences are important.  They also develop protections for staff and participants.  Is the rule that you have to make a fire to have hot food harsh?  Should program staff cook and serve all meals?  And while pain may produce growth in some situations, it is hardly the underlying philosophy of good programs.  Actually, the philosophy is more like removing someone from familiar surroundings will help them to open up and express themselves, and at the same time, self-esteem will grow from the accomplishments along the way.

And the 1998 article about Oversight of youth-offender camps often falls short is credible, but really doesn't address effectiveness of well-run wilderness programs.

SO ...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2006, 12:35:00 PM »
...SO, you're not naming names.

What ARE the good wilderness programs, if such things exist?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2006, 12:39:00 PM »
"And while pain may produce growth in some situations,"

No.

Don't fucking make me bring back Luke. I have a hard time posting as him, because if he really existed he would have beat your ass into the ground LONG AGO, but this kind of bullshit calls for him.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2006, 12:44:00 PM »
I liked Luke.  I wouldn't mind seeing him around again.  His imagination is fantastic.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2006, 01:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-07 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-07 18:02:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-06-07 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:



"Wow, I just did the same search and didn't find any real evidence (from actually independent sources) that these places work..."







Get a new computer, use a new search engine, or read down more than two listings.





Also, please explain why the argument of research "proving" negative impact isn't challenged for proof of existance - because that surely isn't there."






This one pertains to confrontational therapy.

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm



This one refers to bootcamps specifically but as we all know many of the same emotional, if not physical tactics are used in wilderness programs, emotional growth schools, BMs, RTCs etc. etc. etc.



http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm





So, since these places are claiming the efficacy of their programs shouldn't the burden be on them to provide research that proves their methods?   We shouldn't have to prove that it does damage (even though we clearly can) if you can't even prove it works at all."


The first link you provided, a summary press release of the NIH report on prevention of violence, never mentions confrontational therapy. Don't assume that this term is synonymous with the therapies mentioned in the NIH report.

In addition, the full NIH report was a summary of discussions about EXISTING research specific to preventing violence. The fact is, there are lots of position papers and propagandea pieces, but very few scientific studies.

The NIH panel members didn't perform any studies; they read and discussed existing reports and reached certain conclusions about them. No one mentions who provided their sources, or what the criteria for validation were.

The second item is about boot camps---which are not the same thing as wilderness programs at all. They don't look alike, and don't operate in the same way.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 01:48:00 PM »
So, has anyone come up with any studies to prove the effectiveness of this type of "therapy"?  We've provided links to two separate studies (actual research, nothing anecdotal).  Did ya find anything yet?

And again, since you're the one claiming the efficacy the burden falls upon you to prove it, not us to disprove it (even though we have).

Confrontational therapy applied to kids in this manner with little to no training is inherently DANGEROUS.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 02:28:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-08 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"...SO, you're not naming names.



What ARE the good wilderness programs, if such things exist?"


that is an invitation to set them up for attacks.  most of the worst have received a good amount of coverage in this forum though, but it is clear that one unhappy camper will turn it into a condemnation, attracting mindless followers who will spout the same story, perhaps embellished.  much the same happens with some political parties, where hoardes follow the party line withut independent assessment.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2006, 02:39:00 PM »
Quote
that is an invitation to set them up for attacks. most of the worst have received a good amount of coverage in this forum though, but it is clear that one unhappy camper will turn it into a condemnation, attracting mindless followers who will spout the same story, perhaps embellished. much the same happens with some political parties, where hoardes follow the party line withut independent assessment.


This is a bullshit copout.

If you don't have an answer, just say so.  Why don't you provide the "independent assessment" to avoid the contrived "issue"?  If there is none, again, just say so.

When we get down to the brass tacks, as usual, we have one opinion from one anonymous poster that programs are "good."  There's no credibility in this type of backpeddling.  

Are you going to skin your smokewagon or just whistle Dixie?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2006, 02:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-08 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So, has anyone come up with any studies to prove the effectiveness of this type of "therapy"?  We've provided links to two separate studies (actual research, nothing anecdotal).  Did ya find anything yet?



And again, since you're the one claiming the efficacy the burden falls upon you to prove it, not us to disprove it (even though we have).



Confrontational therapy applied to kids in this manner with little to no training is inherently DANGEROUS."


the studies showing efficacy requested have already been identified.

if the two links you say were provided refer to the nih.gov and nmha.gov links, they refer to studies on confrontational therapy and boot camps, but not wilderness programs.  at least one of them says its all the same approach, but it isn't, and they did not look at wilderness programs.

any why does the assertion that you've disproven anything keep popping up when you haven't shown that, and you won't even look at anything that says anything positive?

as for confrontational therapy being inherently dangerous, what does that have to do with the price of frankfurters?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2006, 02:45:00 PM »
Your mother has something to do with the price of frankfurters. :smile:
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2006, 03:04:00 PM »
There are some independent studies in progress (people collecting data) but I have not found any completed independent studies myself.  With that said there is a wilderness program that I have some first hand knowledge of and they have had very good results (In and of itself) although like most programs the success is partially dependent on follow thru and structuring a healthy environment following the wilderness program.  The place I speak of is in North Carolina and calls itself ?SUWS of the Carolinas?.  I would encourage any parent looking at wilderness programs to add this program to their search.

Some of their results are as follows:

Outcome Studies
Several research projects have documented the effectiveness of SUWS programs:
A study conducted one-year post-SUWS found that of students who continued therapeutic treatment:
88% showed significant improvement in Family Relationships
80% showed significant improvement in School
81% demonstrated a noticeable increase in Self-Esteem
Another study documented a 90% improvement in the sustained progress of students at therapeutic boarding schools following completion of SUWS.

Here is a link:
http://www.suwscarolinas.com/testimonials.htm

Hope this helps
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2006, 03:08:00 PM »
Hmm...ok, but one should beware of these "statistics" presented.
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