Author Topic: Wilderness program effectiveness  (Read 14113 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Wilderness program effectiveness
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2006, 06:19:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 15:12:00, Badpuppy wrote:

"To a great many urban and suburban dwellers there is nothing of any relevance in learning to survive in the wilderness. The closest to the wilderness we will ever be, is watching the Nature Channel on high definition. The survival skills we need are hailing taxis in the rain, spotting the good mechanics, finding the best housing bargains and navigating urban transit. That is what will build our confidence, self esteem, and locus of control. I am thinking about setting up an Outward Bound in San Francisco, New York, Philadelphia, Fort Lauderdale, or Harvard Square in Boston. "


Hey, good idea,You may have something there.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2006, 06:19:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-09 15:20:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"
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You've not given any of your so-called incontrovertable proof that wilderness programs are inherently harmful You've not responded to the references, including links to evidence of positive effects.




You'll have to quote what you think I need to explain and I'll do it for you.  If you say that I said something you should at least provide the quote so I know what you're talking about.



I have not seen a single credible study of the so-called "wilderness therapy" programs' effectiveness.  Show me something tangible and I'll review it.  I'm not interested in shill pieces and industry literature - I already know better than that type of nonsense.  I've seen and studied the approach and I can't find any measurable benefit whatsover, but I can see a lot of serious problems.  I've also seen quite a few young adults with serious problems caused by this type of "help."



It is inherently harmful to place a child in a program unwillingly by coercion or force.  It is inherently harmful to make them stay by the same means.



I'm a rational human being.  I connect the dots - there's a clear pattern.  I have no idea in the world why this infuriates some people so badly.
"



One post I recall - saying wilderness programs were proven harmful, is one I can't now find.  Perhaps it was one in the program question thread that got edited.  Perhaps it was elsewhere, or by someone else.  Whatever.

Your post of 6/6 at 10:13 said ""Wilderness Therapy" is research-proven ineffective through clinical study and the results are incontrovertible."  
I've not found or seen such proof - only "heard" of it on this site.  Yet studies showing effectiveness and other observations of full-time professionals speaking of its value are out there.  

On 6/11 at 6:17 your post contained: "You seem to continuously miss one salient point. People who are educated, trained professionals in the arena of mental health don't need studies proving ineffectiveness as we are fully equipped through education and experience to make value judgements on the effectiveness and appropriateness of treatment."  
Still, I know two psychiatrists, two psychologists, and a CSW unaffiliated with any wilderness (or TBS) program who have recommended each in some instances - with positive outcomes.

So, I guess you don't have/can't identify the studies "proving" ineffectiveness.  Did you just make it up as you went along, and now you don't need them?  
Yet is nice to learn that you are a professional fully equipped with education and experience in mental health.  What specialty/sub-specialty?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2006, 06:29:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 14:24:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Here's what your money buys:

Woodbury Reports survey on effectiveness

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#56579



1/3 were negative or unenthusiastic in their approval indicating they didn't feel they got their money's worth, Suggests inappropriate placements are happening too often, Suggesting that programs promised more than they could deliver....

"


Also suggests 2/3 thought it worthwhile.  But however you slice it, there are some good.  The issue is two-fold: finding good placements, which is getting a bit easier but still is not easy; and getting acceptance that some programs etc are good, which for many here would be harder than a parent finding a good placement.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2006, 06:30:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"When my son was 16 we sent him to Outward Bound.  That is where he learned to smoke dope and then learned the value of taking sleeping pills to "get through" the solo.  I know the programs O.B. offer vary, but we had a terrible experience.  The staff never checked the meds the kids brought with them and did not monitor sexual behavior at all.  The program backfired on us.  $4,000 for three weeks of drug reinforcement.  He had a GREAT time though."

i am sorry that this happened to you. i think that this is a regulatory issue. I have been arguing that 2 things are wrong with this industry. The fist is lack of govt oversite which if adressed would ensure that kids get correct levels of supervision and care. The second is cultural change.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2006, 06:33:00 PM »
Cindy are you still talking about things you know nothing about? Come over to the HLA thread and acknowledge your incompetence before you start trying to force your lack of wisdom on more people.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2006, 06:54:00 PM »
Those 1983 studies you are discussing are amongst the ones that were reviewed in the meta-analysis and by the Justice Department and found to have methodological flaws that made them impossible to draw conclusions from.  Generally, they lost too many people to follow up.

Just because someone thinks a study is OK to put in a discussion section doesn't mean that it is actually methodologically sound.

The consensus amongst those who have looked at this area objectively-- not people who make their business selling it or people who have an emotional attachment to the idea of it-- is that there is little evidence that wilderness programs help.  The evidence that does favor the approach only favors voluntary programs which take a kind, gentle, supportive approach-- not those which use force or accept kids who do not want to be there.

And in the current lax regulatory environment, it is impossible for parents to know that that is what their kids will actually get.

People who believe in this business should be supporting strict regulation-- otherwise, they have no credibility.  Those who say it's OK as it is but there are a few bad apples and you can find good programs if you know how to look don't recognize that high turnover and lack of regulation means that even good programs will often have bad employees who can be seriously dangerous to kids.

Unchecked power is corrosive and leads inevitably to abuse-- these programs do not have the kinds of checks and balances to protect kids in them.  If you look at military boot camps or prisons or psychiatric institutions, they are filled with attempts to check power and keep the use of force on a tight rein.  Even there, there are regularly abuses and problems because the situation of having people with absolute power over others will always produce abuses, the only thing you can do is try to minimize them.  This is why you want to use the least restrictive setting for kids-- to avoid exposing them to inherently dangerous institutions.  

With kids, there is an extra problem:  pedophiles.  Any place that has lots of children will attract pedophiles-- if you don't do background checks, require little education and hire kids who were previously troubled themselves as "role models," your program is going to be a magnet for them.

So, by sending your kids to these places as they stand now, you are not necessarily making them safer than they are on the street.  Sure, drug scenes attract problem people too-- but at least there, the pedophiles can rarely prevent those who want to talk to their parents from doing so and at least there, the child will be believed if he complains of abuse-- not dismissed as "manipulative."

The troubled teen business has yet to recognize these risks-- and this is why it remains dangerous, even though there may well be some kids who could benefit from some things, like communion with nature or challenge in nature.

It's also why Outward Bound for *regular* kids-- not the program aimed at those in trouble-- is at least somewhat safer.  When you have ordinary kids who choose to go, they are going to be believed when they complain-- whether its about abuse or illness.

Also, it is impossible to prove a negative-- you can only say that there's no evidence that is is effective.  It's like if you say all swans are white-- you can't prove it.  One black swan may exist somewhere.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2006, 06:57:00 PM »
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One black swan may exist somewhere.


I believe she is known as KarenInDallas.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2006, 07:14:00 PM »
By the way, I sent my kid to an OB program for "regular" kids.  I didn't appreciate that a bunch of hippies with no boundries taught my kid to smoke dope.  Get over your "Karen in Dallas" label.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2006, 07:30:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 14:53:00, TheWho wrote:

I hate to be the one to point this out to you but studies are written specifically for other professionals, not to the public.  Professionals rely heavily on studies to advise and treat their patients.  Learning and education does not stop with a diploma, as it has with you, but continues throughout our professional lives.  We depend on the results and recommendations of the latest studies and research, being a true professional is looked upon as fluid and a continuous process.


I am going to invoke my ex-wife the psychiatrist again. She's not involved this time, only my own knowledge here. In order to maintain her credentials my ex has to take a certain amount of credits each year and become recertified every ten years. One of the things I admire about her is how well she keeps up with the new stuff. She also keeps a healthy skepticism and doesn't jump onto the bandwagon at every new fad.

I also see through her that doctors very frequently share their experiences and trade stories and information with other doctors. That is another way of keeping up.

But, I have also attended more dinners sponsored by pharmaceutical companies than I can count. These are held at very nice restaurants and hotels. The meals are lavish and they treat the doctors like royalty. Then they put on their dog and pony shows (using lots of Powerpoint slides) where they introduce the new drug or new use for a drug. They are armed with charts and graphs and the outcomes of studies and inform the doctors on who should take the drug, what dose, how long, what are the side-effects, how to deal with them, what are the dangers, etc. The problem is that these dinners are the ONLY source of information for these doctors. The intention is not just to inform. It is to sell. The free samples are passed out and we all go home. A bit scary, really.

It is the same with these WT programs. The studies all seem to be sponsored by the industry or related parties.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-06-11 16:31 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2006, 07:40:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 16:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"By the way, I sent my kid to an OB program for "regular" kids.  I didn't appreciate that a bunch of hippies with no boundries taught my kid to smoke dope.  Get over your "Karen in Dallas" label."


Why would you send your kid away if he was "regular"?
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2006, 07:40:00 PM »
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Atomic Ant wrote:

"One of the things I admire about her is how well she keeps up with the new stuff. She also keeps a healthy skepticism and doesn't jump onto the bandwagon at every new fad."


Responsible providers all do this.  This is why we have professional associations and periodicals.

Saying that I don't need a study to prove a negative because I have an education and training to judge that on my own means in no way that I feel like I don't need to keep up with the times.  That is another ridiculous strawman argument.

The bottom line, Who, is that you generally have no idea of what your talking about and you transfer your own ineptitude onto others.  Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't mean others don't.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2006, 08:45:00 PM »
The other problem with Who is that he is borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring.  Why even respond?  He makes my eyeballs curl up.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2006, 09:07:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-11 16:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


"By the way, I sent my kid to an OB program for "regular" kids.  I didn't appreciate that a bunch of hippies with no boundries taught my kid to smoke dope.  Get over your "Karen in Dallas" label."




Why would you send your kid away if he was "regular"?"


Because he asked to go.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2006, 09:09:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-11 17:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The other problem with Who is that he is borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring.  Why even respond?  He makes my eyeballs curl up."


eyeballs curl up...
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
that was funny!!!
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Offline Fire Swamp

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« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2006, 09:11:00 PM »
If he was 'regular' and asked to 'go' why not let him go...just be sure that there's toilet paper. :lol:
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