Population increase

[Anonymous]

Odie, You are correct. I did attack 3 separate individuals. I was inappropriate for doing so. I was angry. I assumed you were fired and based on what you say I was wrong. My affiliation was as an employee. I worked at Daytop for 13 or so years. As I stated before I did not agree with many things. I also did not feel I was treated fairly at some points. I chose to leave and pursue other things. This aside, the program did help many people. I know as you do that individuals were able to get clean and begin to lead a productive life. That's what is important. My only issue with most of the postings on this site is that both sides are not accurately portrayed. No the program does not work for some individuals, but it certainly does for others. That needs to be represented. The attacks are OK, but at least acknowledge the success. I read postings that portray only the negative. How about the individuals who are today clean and sober and being productive. Some want to say they did this despite Daytop. Totally incorrect. Yes, the individual was the one who changed. The program didn't. But the individual likely would not have unless they received guidance and support from the program. The intent of the agency is to help people. Amazingly they do. Not everyone but a lot of people. Instead of the Daytop bashing, give people other alternatives. If you so disagree with the Daytop program or the TC concept suggest something else or specific agencies that can help. I was asked to provide data and results. I did. No not specific to just Daytop, but the TC concept. Yes this can be dissected and anyone can find data that says the opposite. I also know as you do that Daytop has conducted numerous outcome studies. They show success, and Yes this can also be argued. Let's face it the program works. Not for everyone, but for some. That is what should be represented. Not lies and false statements. DJ, can quote whomever he/she wants. They can also claim whatever they want. But as soon as anyone argues the point they are either uneducated or mentally challenged and I have to argue that. Just because someone does not have a license or a advanced education does not mean they are less then anyone else. It's sad that someone who was allegedly helping people does not believe that they can change. In addition DJ never offers alternatives to help people. SO, I was wrong and I apologize for falsely accusing some individuals. The Truth is the gateway to freedom.

[Troll Control]

I also know as you do that Daytop has conducted numerous outcome studies.

Post the results or move on to the next topic.  Show evidence for your claims.  Your credibility is zero.  

First you slander poster after poster claiming they were "fired" that they're "angry" and "outdated."  The truth of the matter is that these things apply to you.  

You admit to projecting your anger on everyone else("puking" on them), admit you're angry and it wouldn't surprise me to know that it was actually you who had been fired.  Anyone who employs the Daytop methodology is necessarily "outdated"  (Synanon is dead and it's abusive  methods live on at Daytop.

So, stop projecting your own nonsense on others and support your (very, very weak) argument with data or be dismissed as a kook.

[Anonymous]

says honesty,"You claim this and that, but have never proven anything. So lets start talking about the facts Mr.Dysfunction Junction. Anyone can make claims, You have to prove them and you have not. "

You assert that Daytop works.  You are a spokesperson for the object that is Daytop.  It is actually up to you to prove your side.  As a matter of fact, everybody else could just sit back and watch if they so chose, because they have no obligation to disprove efficacy of Daytop.  The obligation of proof is entirely on you.  You offer all your proof that the program is in fact efficient, and then discussion can begin from there.  First you have to prove it.  then y6ou have to defend your position against rational scrunity, and if you are not prepared to do this, you may as well just move on with your life.

0n a sidenote, I couldn't persanally care less, if you prove that some people find their sobriety through TC's or Daytop.

I would like to see you prove that Daytop is an overall benefit reguardless of whether a person continues to use drugs or not, to the majority of it's participants.

I would like to see it proven that a person leaves daytop with more honesty then they enterred, to steal from your name.

I would like to see it proven that people leave Daytop better off then they went in.

If it has an overall positive effect on it's participants, then it is good and to steal from Daytop terminology, valid.

If not, then it is bad and unnecessary.

I am not only interested in whatever benefits that may come from participating in a Daytop program, but also at what cost those benefits come.

Also, I would like to be told not what the principles of Daytop or a TC are, but why they work, and what their purpose is.  These explanations should either be sound and clearly logical, and obvious , so that anyone can understand them, or still sound and logical, but also backed by evidence.  

I would like to see this done without refraining to contradictions, mysterious dead end concepts, usage of words such as "babies", and dopefienes.  Everything should be backed with sound logic.  

You cannot do it, and this is because it is impossible to do.  I have seen counselors try a few times, 'til they would finally get too frustrated and go into emotional outbursts, and then attack the motive of the person who made the inquiry.

I say that the TC model is severly and disgustingly outdated, and your mind has to be knumb in quite a few places in order to practice it.

All the same anyone who wishes can join a TC or run around touting their benefits.  Hell you can build your own TC if you want, or jerk off to a statue of the monsignor.  None of it is of concern to me.  What bothers me is that teenager's are forcefully held in these places.  It would bother me to if adults were forcefull held in these places, but that does not happenned, as the rights of an adult are protected.

Later,
Paul St. Jophn

[Anonymous]

I have never seen so many people in need of therapy since i was a kid in daytop.  So miserable and sadly inappropriate.  i originally came to see about old friends and all i see is BS.  cut the crap grow up & find someone else to pick on punks, especially st john, u phony, learn how to spell, go back to school & therapy, you'd be better off, you are a fool. cut the crap & grow up u bunch of 5yr old babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In 1982 treatment sucked, but that was because i was a selfish punk, who needed to get a good ass kicking.  Treatment helped because it was better than jail or dying in the street, grow up & face the facts, there are many way worse places than DAYTOP, FOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLSSSS!!!!!!

Oh & by the way, I have a masters in social work, a license to practice social work, teach college and have over twenty years in the field.  Good luck jerks, go get laid or something!!

[Troll Control]

i was a selfish punk, who needed to get a good ass kicking.

and you still do.  inappropriateness?  spelling?  get laid?  jerks?

and you're a SOCIAL WORKER?  sure, buddy, sure.  you've been to as many college classes as my cat and you're probably not nearly as smart.

this poster is full of bologna (and probably crack and dope, too)!

[Anonymous]

i was a selfish punk, who needed to get a good ass kicking.

and you still do.  inappropriateness?  spelling?  get laid?  jerks?

and you're a SOCIAL WORKER?  sure, buddy, sure.  you've been to as many college classes as my cat and you're probably not nearly as smart.

this poster is full of bologna (and probably crack and dope, too)!

[Anonymous]

who rattled your cage Paul?

[Anonymous]

go get laid punk!

[Anonymous]

sure. you've been to as many college classes as my cat and you're probably not nearly as smart.


Your cat was quite interesting, as for you get a life.  Is this what you have become, a hateful, small minded person?

Do this social worker (LMSW) a favor, one favor: GO GET LAID/lay off daytop!  You're acting worse than the people you say you dislike.  What is it with you, were you raped in daytop? please share.. It sounds like you did not make it to me, are really better than them? :exclaim: Give us a break, grow-up!  Go back to treatment, and if you weren't there than you should know, you really need........SEE YA

[Anonymous]

who rattled your cage Paul?

Nobody as of yet.  lol

I have not yet responded to 82

[Anonymous]

Okay.. Lets look at this post, although little here is even worth response:

I have never seen so many people in need of therapy since i was a kid in daytop. So miserable and sadly inappropriate.  

 You say that the posters here are miserable.  What leads you to this conclusion?

You also say that the posters here are "sadly inappropriate". (lol)

Inappropriate to what?  We are in a message board- not a Daytop facility.  What exactly do you consider appropriate as you go on calling people miserable and babies?  Can you give some examples of where we are so sadly innappropriate as opposed to your highly classful remarks?


i originally came to see about old friends and all i see is BS.



  cut the crap grow up & find someone else to pick on punks,


lol.. we are punks and you are foaming at the mouth right now, but somehow we are sadly innappropriate.  You are obviously still thinking in the terms of a Daytop model which decrees what is appropriate and what is okay, with no reflecting upon reality. In other words, your ideas are sadly out of context, and I truly do mean sadly

especially st john, u phony, learn how to spell, go back to school & therapy, you'd be better off, you are a fool.


 Oh goody !  I even get specail mention!  I know how to spell.  Most often,  I have very little time to write my posts.  I write them once, and in a mad hurry, and then post 'em.  I hope that most people can understand my posts reguardless of a mispelled word, or a word out of place.

You tell me " go back to therapy"..

You really are a dumbass, ain't ya?  Yup Daytop was great.  Therapy is a for all cure all, and we all need it as though it existed before humanity itself, as though it is an integral part of human existence.. just another way in which Daytop sucks everything out of a realitic context.  BTW, you have learned their trade well.


and your next almost random ranting, is that I am a fool.  Oh, that is great.  can you tell me how I am a fool, or why I am a fool?

or are you actually the fool?  I put this in the form of a question, but in actuality I know that you are a fool.  

 cut the crap & grow up u bunch of 5yr old babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 You are on the right track!  Just yell that at me about 1,000 more times, and I think I will be cured, have a positive self-esteem, and never touch a drug so long as I live


 In 1982 treatment sucked, but that was because i was a selfish punk, who needed to get a good ass kicking.  


Sounds like an abused child who believes he's deserves his beatings.  Why not admit it here and now?  they crushed you.  They broke your spirit.  You didn t belive that when you went in there.  They convinced you of it.

and where you selfish or self interested?



Treatment helped because it was better than jail or dying in the street,

You seem to be saying that for everyone person who ever went into a Daytop facility, there were only three alternatives in life:

1) Daytop, or as you refer to it "treatment", or as I will refer to as "bad treatment"
2)Jail
3) Dying in the street

There could be no more false or ridiculous statement.  Hopefully you have enough of a brain left in your head that I do not need to explain this any further.


 grow up & face the facts, there are many way worse places than DAYTOP, FOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLSSSS!!!!!!


Sure there are.  So what?

Oh and please keep those exclamations of what we fools we all are coming.  i think that it is going to bring us all to positive growth experience very soon.  There is nothing like degrading comments to help the healing process.. Again, you have masterred their craft very well.  

Oh & by the way, I have a masters in social work, a license to practice social work, teach college and have over twenty years in the field

Oh and by the way, I don't give a shit.  Credentails don't do the job.  You wanna make points, make points, and then back them up.  A piece of paper on your wall does not make you any kind of all knowing athority to me, nor should it to anyone


.  Good luck jerks, go get laid or something!!

At least you are consistent.  You started the post out like a prick, and ended it on the same note


Paul St. John

[Anonymous]

Good Day Mr. St. John,

   I claim the world is flat, elephants are pink, the holocaust never happened, I own the Brooklyn Bridge, and you are correct. Anyone can claim anything. Some have posted wild claims and we are supposed to accept this as fact. You can if you want. I argued and proved that Daytop and TC?s are effective. Research has been performed and the results were documented. That is what I was asked to do. Oh, yes you can find research that claims the opposite. The overall benefit is in the individuals who participated in the programs and are today productive individuals. Some have had set backs some have not. The principals are to be honest with yourself and others. Also take responsibility for your actions and decisions, Set goals and work towards accomplishing them, stay substance free, and try to help others. These are very logical and relevant. Many individuals who have posted on this site are the evidence of the programs success as well as there failure. You seem to enjoy lecturing to individuals about standards you set with regard to what is success. I have asked many people who have posted on this site to define success. No one has so I ask you to define it. In addition any individual who participates in treatment needs support and encouragement. MY argument is and has been that if people posting on this site disagree with the TC or Daytop programs then offer alternatives. I have yet to see anyone suggest a specific program or form of treatment. Again the issue is with alternatives. Daytop is one and they are effective in what they do. They have evolved and changed in many ways. This process of change is one that is ongoing. They are working to help people and that is what they are doing regardless of what you tend to spew in your postings. Why are you so negative and derogatory? Do you have some things you need to process? :roll:   :idea:  As for Eighty 8, don?t stop fighting for what you believe
 :flame:

[Troll Control]

Oh geez.  Now there's two of these dum-dums?  "Honesty" and "82" are two half-witted mouth-breathers.  It has nothing at all to do with Daytop.  They're just not very bright.  

"82" is a poser and a wanna-be.  He is not an LCSW.  He's not an L-anything.  He likes to pretend he is so that people who read his nonsensical (and oh-so-clinically-wrong) rants might give him a little more clout than they otherwise would or should.  But make no mistake; this guy has never seen the inside of an institution of higher learning.  

This is a simple story told exremely effectively by his abjectly poor impression of a professional with a degree.  He can't construct a sentence, much less a thought, in that drug-addled brain of his and yet he's attempting to pass himself off as intelligencia.  Riiiiight. "Honesty" has a bridge to sell you, "82."

What a couple of dopes.

[Anonymous]

Your so deep! When I was drinking the purple beverage -base, (kool-aid) in the 80's, I watched sadly, as fools like you ran away.  Grow up & get help!  How can you be so stuck on promoting BS?

Here I sit alone & confused wondering what has happened, alone on this cold & unfeeling chair, asking myself why.......Please spare us the drama of cutting & pasting, I have to get to my GED class.

Eat some turkey & have fun, care about you/love ya! hows bout a reach out?

[Troll Control]

This guy is as sharp as a marble.