Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Daytop Village

who's in charge here?

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Troll Control:
Well, being "forced" to change because of environmental factors certainly doesn't lead to meaningful, lasting, internalized change.  In other words, it's environment specific and the behavior change doesn't follow the subject into new environments.

I'll tell you the single biggest indicator that Daytop could not have cared less if you actually made meaningful change:  "Act As If."  This means, don't rock the boat, shut your mouth and keep your head down and you'll get out.

In reality, Daytop uses an ineffective behavioral technique called "negative reinforcement."  This is widely misunderstood as the application of unpleasant consequences following an undesired behavior.  That isn't what it is.

"Negative reinforcement" is actually the cessation of an unpleasant stimulus following a desired behavior.  

For example, you arrive at Daytop and people are in your face yelling, screaming, having "group on you," etc.  This is the "unpleasant stimulus," if you will.  Upon complete submission and acquiescence to the "program," they esentially leave you alone - the cessation of the unpleasant stimulus.

This is analagous to the classical negative reinforcement experiments involving lab animals.  

An example: A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of the stopping of the shock.

This technique was shown to be ineffective by the very founders of behavior modification who developed this concept (you can research B.F. Skinner, J.B. Watson, et al).

In short, the concept of Daytop and other coercive BM facilities is flawed to its very core and the new programs we see springing up are simply a rehashing and repackaging of the same discredited approach.

Thanks for the compliment, by the way.  I find an honest, fact-based approach makes the "true believers" of programs extremely angry, as they would have us all respond to scientific, intellectual problems with feelings-based, unscientific, emotionally evocative approaches.  

The problem is that they don't work and have been proven without doubt not to work...

Thanks for your insight from a resident's perspective.  I'd recommend you talk to Odie for another perspective - that of a program grad staff member who has had quite a bit of continuing classical education.

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-06 10:57 ]

Anonymous:
interesting thoughts. in many ways I knew i was being brain-washed to a degree and definitely rat-shocked, but the end goal was getting out of dv and on with my life--so i permitted the concept to take hold, to "trust", to "act as if", etc.

your comment about bm therapy not leading "to meaningful, lasting, internalized change" is one that i've struggled with for years because i did remain drug-free, became a happier and healthier person, and went on to see much professional and academic success. i did not rely on the program or my peer afterwards and did not become an anti-drug fanatic either.

in the mid-80s I was contacted by my best friend in the program. she was in a bad way, being one of the kids who had had more severe mental issues that were sidelined by dv staff. she had since been institutionalized, diagnosed and medicated. she told me that most of our peer was using drugs again (one particular "favorite" had been doing coke 2 months up to her graduation date and went thru under the radar!), one was dead and one was in jail.

i was devastated. instead of feeling some much deserved schadenfreude, due to staff's prediction that i would "never make it", i felt as if a cruel joke had been played on me--that i was the only fool had that had internalized dv's concept. it was a huge wtf moment!

i mulled on it for quite some time and the only idea i could ever come up with is that i must have been the only one that actually graduated without "guilt". that i really had opened myself up to change and worked on my problems (cause and thus symptom). and that in the end i just didn't need drugs anymore.

but did that mean that dv works? i have never been sure because of that staggering attrition rate of my peer.

odie:
One of the biggest problems with Daytop throughout it's history has been the one size fits all theory of treatment. While some of the bm techniques used with adults do work, I am a perfect example of it, it must never be applied to some populations, especially adolescents. Also the unwillingness of some of the old timers to own up to the fact that they hurt more people than they helped will continue until they either retire or join the ranks of some of their peers looking for new livers because they have stuck to the belief that they can drink responsibly. These are the people from a time when in order to graduate Daytop you had to go out and have a drink with the director that are in the upper management of Daytop. Unfortunately there are some that blindly followed them and continue to work there in some Director roles. I'd say there has been much growth in many of the staff that truely want to make a difference but they are fighting seemingly unsurmountable odds when dealing with those with tunnel vision. I left Daytop six years ago but keep a watchful eye on the organization. I know their secrets and they know who I am and I don't fear them whatsoever. I know they are a very powerful and influential butI also know that I have become a better person in spite of putting up with some of their antics. :wave:
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it.  That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance

--- End quote ---

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2006-06-29 07:34:00, odie wrote:
"because they have stuck to the belief that they can drink responsibly"

--- End quote ---

hey odie. i thought they got rid of drinking privileges in the late 80s. are you opposed to that process? i always thought it was the distinguishing aspect of the DV Re-entry phase--it set it apart from 12-step programs. mind you, we never drank with staff. your "drinkers" was meant to be used at a wedding to toast or to have a beer with a restaurant meal--not to sit at home with a case or at a bar with your peer knocking back shots.

odie:
My personal belief is there is no such thing as responsible drinking for a person that has been diagnosed with a dependence to alcohol.However since Daytop is licensed by the State of NY as an Alcohol and Substance Abuse treatment program, it should be educating its clients on physiological and psychological effects of continued use of alcohol and also teaching them some decisional balancing skills, neither of which were being taught when I left there in 2000. It is ultimately the choice of the individual whether or not to continue using any substance. My statement regarding many of the upper management in Daytop is true and that is why it will be a long time for anything meaningful to change. :wave:
"When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God
--- End quote ---

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