Author Topic: Who's worried about Social Security?  (Read 24246 times)

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Offline GregFL

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Who's worried about Social Security?
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2006, 09:39:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-05-23 20:20:00, SHH wrote:

"OK Greg, since youre so brilliant, you tell me how you think you would fix it. And while youre at it, explain to me why its not fair to tax the wealthy equally as much as the middle class or lower class?



"


Well, Dismissing your condenscending statement, I will answer both of your questions.

1)  I Don't think the system is fixable. Certainly your proposal (the second one that is) just accelerates the problem and makes it collapse sooner. It is broken beyond repair and will collapse upon itself unless taxes are dramatically raised, at which point people will start rebelling because, as I repeatedly have pointed out, the SS system is actually a redistribution of wealth from WORKERS and BUSINESSES  to RETIREES.

 At some point perhaps  the smog will clear and the workers will want the bleeding to stop.  But, as we have demonstrated repeatedly, we seldom fix anything until long after it broken beyond repair.  We wait until the well runs dry.  With SS, this has already happend but people keep lying and talking about the "trust fund" like their is actually something other than IOU's sitting in our National SS account.  

2) With this question I must know assume  you have jumped off of FICA and onto the bigger question of taxes in general.  You say " explain to me why its not fair to tax the wealthy equally as much as the middle class or lower class?"  I am flabbergasted and dismayed you would  suggest they don't.  

The rich pay much much much more in taxes than the poor and middle class, if we are (and we are) speaking of individual tax payers.  The dollar amount of taxes is higher.  The tax rate is higher.  The rich pay more in sales tax, property tax, income tax, and yes, SS and medicare tax. The Rich are often employers and, I really want you to get this one...pay 50% of your own social security, medicare and medicaid taxes.  Thats right, you aren't even paying but 50% of  these taxes because our "Fair" system has passed off 50% of that burden to your employer, or the stockholders of the corporation you work for. Even if the rich aren't employers, they are often self employed and pay DOUBLE what you pay in social security, medicare and medicaid taxes.  Are we "fair" yet?

 The rich also often  take their already taxed dollars, invest them and then are taxed again on the profit they make(if any) in the form of capital gains taxes).  When the rich die, they pay estate taxes.  The rich pay more taxes in consumption taxes, airport taxes,  and almost any conceivable tax out there.


 Are you seriously suggesting that the middle class and poor pay more in taxes on an individual basis?   here, let me get one of those laughy things... :lol:


Lastly,  your question doesn't even follow anything I have said.  I have maintained that you and others have misdefined and use an Orwelian definition of "FAIR"  The problem is that percentage taxes, progressive taxes, and any other tax that puts a larger burden on one person than the next inherently isn't "FAIR" in a government that  provides services more or less to each one of us at the same rate. For example, explain why a more expensive  house pays more in property taxes than a small house...is this fair?  Of course not.  But you possibly could make the argument that it is necessary because people living in small houses often can't afford to pay their own way.  


I also pointed out a "FAIR" system won't work in the united states because some people can't or won't pay their share,and the rest of us must make it up. I also pointed out that hiding behind the term "fair" when you are asking one segment of society to pay your way is a 'sissy' thing to do, that you should explain who you want to pay your way and why they should.  

In light of all I have posted in this thread on this subject, your last two posts suggest you aren't reading or comprehending what I am saying.
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Offline GregFL

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Who's worried about Social Security?
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2006, 09:39:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-05-23 20:20:00, SHH wrote:

"OK Greg, since youre so brilliant, you tell me how you think you would fix it. And while youre at it, explain to me why its not fair to tax the wealthy equally as much as the middle class or lower class?



"


Well, Dismissing your condenscending statement, I will answer both of your questions.

1)  I Don't think the system is fixable. Certainly your proposal (the second one that is) just accelerates the problem and makes it collapse sooner. It is broken beyond repair and will collapse upon itself unless taxes are dramatically raised, at which point people will start rebelling because, as I repeatedly have pointed out, the SS system is actually a redistribution of wealth from WORKERS and BUSINESSES  to RETIREES.

 At some point perhaps  the smog will clear and the workers will want the bleeding to stop.  But, as we have demonstrated repeatedly, we seldom fix anything until long after it broken beyond repair.  We wait until the well runs dry.  With SS, this has already happend but people keep lying and talking about the "trust fund" like their is actually something other than IOU's sitting in our National SS account.  

2) With this question I must know assume  you have jumped off of FICA and onto the bigger question of taxes in general.  You say " explain to me why its not fair to tax the wealthy equally as much as the middle class or lower class?"  I am flabbergasted and dismayed you would  suggest they don't.  

The rich pay much much much more in taxes than the poor and middle class, if we are (and we are) speaking of individual tax payers.  The dollar amount of taxes is higher.  The tax rate is higher.  The rich pay more in sales tax, property tax, income tax, and yes, SS and medicare tax. The Rich are often employers and, I really want you to get this one...pay 50% of your own social security, medicare and medicaid taxes.  Thats right, you aren't even paying but 50% of  these taxes because our "Fair" system has passed off 50% of that burden to your employer, or the stockholders of the corporation you work for. Even if the rich aren't employers, they are often self employed and pay DOUBLE what you pay in social security, medicare and medicaid taxes.  Are we "fair" yet?

 The rich also often  take their already taxed dollars, invest them and then are taxed again on the profit they make(if any) in the form of capital gains taxes).  When the rich die, they pay estate taxes.  The rich pay more taxes in consumption taxes, airport taxes,  and almost any conceivable tax out there.


 Are you seriously suggesting that the middle class and poor pay more in taxes on an individual basis?   here, let me get one of those laughy things... :lol:


Lastly,  your question doesn't even follow anything I have said.  I have maintained that you and others have misdefined and use an Orwelian definition of "FAIR"  The problem is that percentage taxes, progressive taxes, and any other tax that puts a larger burden on one person than the next inherently isn't "FAIR" in a government that  provides services more or less to each one of us at the same rate. For example, explain why a more expensive  house pays more in property taxes than a small house...is this fair?  Of course not.  But you possibly could make the argument that it is necessary because people living in small houses often can't afford to pay their own way.  


I also pointed out a "FAIR" system won't work in the united states because some people can't or won't pay their share,and the rest of us must make it up. I also pointed out that hiding behind the term "fair" when you are asking one segment of society to pay your way is a 'sissy' thing to do, that you should explain who you want to pay your way and why they should.  

In light of all I have posted in this thread on this subject, your last two posts suggest you aren't reading or comprehending what I am saying.
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Offline Anonymous

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Who's worried about Social Security?
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2006, 10:34:00 AM »
Social Security: The Phony Crisis
by Dean Baker, Mark Weisbrot

The sky isn't falling on Social Security, say economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot in this readable but sophisticated defense of America's popular government-run retirement program. The public suspects Social Security won't be solvent in the 21st century, they continue, because of "an avalanche of misinformation, disinformation, and powerful political and financial interests." The authors are both liberal economists, and they believe that the privatization of Social Security favored by many libertarians and younger Americans would involve great risk and possibly destroy a system of entitlements that has rescued millions of retirees from spending their golden years in poverty. Although they admit the stock market has averaged a 7 percent rate of return over the last 75 years--much higher than anything Social Security can claim--there is no way to predict what will happen in the future; mandatory private investment programs favored by many free-market reformers therefore offer false promises. Only Social Security, say Baker and Weisbrot, provides a guarantee of income for the elderly. Along the way, Social Security: The Phony Crisis discusses the history of Social Security and evaluates several of the reform proposals now on the table in Washington. A constant drumbeat in favor of the status quo will guarantee this book's popularity among liberals. --John J. Miller --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

From Booklist
Baker and Weisbrot take issue with widespread dire predictions that the 64-year-old Social Security system will not be able to provide financial security for the aged and disabled in the future. Baker, a senior research fellow at the Century Foundation and the Preamble Center, and Weisbrot, a research director at the Preamble Center, project that Social Security will remain viable for at least 30 more years--longer if the U.S. economy continues to grow at its current pace. Concerns about a shortfall that will transform economic class warfare into "intergenerational conflict" are outright lies, according to the authors. Doomsayers have misinterpreted demographic trends and mistakenly lumped together Medicare and Social Security when estimating the financial burden on the government, the authors claim. Baker and Weisbrot offer an interesting viewpoint in the controversial debate about Social Security--one that is certainly more welcome than the typical predictions of a shortfall. Vanessa Bush --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.


Reviewer:   Michael Brennan (Chicago, IL United States) - See all my reviews
This book is a very welcome antidote to claims that Social Security is fiscally unsound and would well be privatized. The authors, economists, cite relevant facts to support their cogent arguments. The usefulness of this book in making clear some major Social Security issues compares very well with books by Robert Eisner (Social Security, More Not Less, and The Great Deficit Scares: the Federal Budget, Trade and Social Security) and with Countdown to Reform, by Henry Aaron and Robert Reischauer. Baker and Weisbrot's book also has valuable information and arguments on health care and other important issues.

Reviewer: A reader
Social Security PRIVATEERS tell us that in 2029.or 2032...now 2050 (notice that the date has to be constantly readjusted BACK every year) it is "calculated" by a Government advisory commission that Social Security won't have enough income to cover more than 75 percent of the benefits it must pay to aging baby boomers.

But the authors point out, the specificity is illusory, all lever-pulling and smoke-blowing from the Wizard of Oz. The projections aren't economic but actuarial extrapolations based on assumptions that the all the actuaries know are fictitious at best. Tweak them ever so slightly--lift real wages by a quarter- or half-percent per annum, or immigration by a little--and the so-called "crisis" disappears entirely. But according to the apparat-niks at the CATO Institute and the attack dogs at the OUT-Fox-ed Network--you might think the numbers have come down from Moses. They haven't. Social Security isn't in trouble and the criticisms of it are not logical as the authors of "The Phony Crisis" point out.

First of all, Social Security is an INSURANCE System, not an "investment". When you factor in the cost of buying disability and survivor insurance and "invest the difference"...the performance "advantage" of equity markets gets razor-thin at best. It turns out that Social Security yields the same as nice safe government bonds, which any intelligent investor knows should form the basis of an investment portfolio.

Secondly, the so-called performance advantage of the markets has a whole lot of IFs that the PRIVATEERS conveniently fail to mention.

Forget hyper-collapse 1929-style for the moment. Since the Crash of October 1987, U.S. markets have been on a nonstop charge; but if you'd gone into the same markets in 1970, you were worse off by 1980--not to mention where you'd be today if you'd bet on Japan in the mid-eighties or Southeast Asia's "sure thing" markets a couple of years ago. Will you do all right in the long term, as brokers and economists insist? Well, probably yes--but then as Keynes observed..."in the long run, we're all dead."

Here's where the income and wealth distribution effects of privatization turn very ugly. For millions of Americans--who bet on Kaypro instead of Microsoft (oops), Pan Am instead of American (sorry) or cattle futures without the skill and connections of Hillary Clinton (smile, please)--life at 75 could mean not "golden years" but working for the folks at the golden arches, or even being out on the street. A FACT of life that the young people who invested in the dotcom bubble are learning the hard way.

How many of us realistically will beat the averages? If 120 million workers are turned loose to bet the markets---40 million of whom are marginally literate or numerate--as the privateers recommend---it turns out that most will lose. The mutual fund industry's dirty little secret is that three-fourths of funds under-perform market indexes. Yet such funds have millions of na�ve investors in them; in one recent survey, a majority of mutual fund investors couldn't even distinguish between a "load" and a "no-load" fund.

There is another issue, so far undiscussed in the debate. For the first time in nearly thirty years, the federal budget's in balance. But it's in balance because each year the Treasury borrows $80 billion from the Social Security Trust Fund surplus, and "covers" the deficit in the rest of the federal budget. If a big piece of Social Security contributions go into private accounts, the trust fund surplus will disappear and the federal budget will plunge back into deficit. Which federal programs are we supposed to cut to make up for it?

If you count the cost of the so-called "free market reforms" over the past twenty years--to a once-viable savings-and-loan system, to Mexican workers and peasants (who've paid for bailouts not once but twice), to the world's poor as they've worked off the global debt crisis. Think about the lives of Indonesian peasants, or Korean and Thai workers today--all set to pay for the "can't miss" marketization of Southeast Asia, just as Americans have so wonderfully benefited from downsizing, capital-gains reduction and globalization.

The folks that brought you ALL these disasters are the ones telling us that now it's Social Security's turn to face the "free market reform" just because it doesn't meet the ideological test of a handful of right-wing zealots.

Social Security is not a disaster. Benefits are moderately progressive, meaning that the bottom 60 percent of retirees get more back than they paid in. More than 90 percent of us pay into it during our working lives and more than 90 percent of us can count on its benefits when we retire. The minor adjustments that are outlined by the authors are all that is necessary to save Social Security.
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Offline GregFL

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Who's worried about Social Security?
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2006, 11:15:00 AM »
Just so you know how "fair" the current system is to the wealthy, lets take an example from real life.

Lets say you make 35,000 per year.  You pay the following

SS tax             $2170 per year.
Medicare             507.50

Total taxes  $2678.00 per year.  Assuming a generous lifetime work schedule of 30 years, you would pay into the system  80,340.  


Now, lets take a small  employer who owns his company or all of the stock of his company, who makes 200,000 per year, and this guy has ten employees just like you, all making $35,000 per year.

First, he pays double the rate up to 94,200 or $7206.00 per year.  Keep that figure in mind.

Now, he also MATCHES all ten of his employees taxes, so he pays an additional $26,780 per year.

that brings his annual total expenditure on social security and medicare to $33,986. We times that by the same 30 years and we come up with $1,019,580  OVER A MILLION DOLLARS PAID INTO THE SYSTEM.

Now, If you and this guy both retired today at 65, you would get $1276 per month, or $15,312 per year.  Everything you paid in, minus interest ($80340) would be recovered by you in 5.24 years.  After age 70, you would be on the "free lunch program" so to speak.

Our hero, the small employer, retiring today at 65, would receive $1863 per month, or $22,356 per year.  Everything he paid (1,019,580) would take this guy 45.6 years to recoup.  In other words, he will get his investment back, minus interest, when he is over 100.   Assuming you live to this date when he breaks even, you will have collected almost a half million dollars  ($460,000) above your investment, while he would be sitting on a big goose egg, ZERO over his investment into the system.*



Are we "FAIR" yet?



This is but one of many examples we could use.  What if this same employer had employees making 100 grand a year?  What if a corporation with 100 stock holders employees 5000 people?  Just what is the contribution into the system by the owners (stockholders) of that corporation?


Are you beginning to get the picture at all?  Also, while thinking about this, figure out in  your mind how we can propagate a system that returns such high gains by taking from the workers and employers and just giving to the retired?  The system is wounded and dying, and you, me and our children will have to pick up the pieces.












*  Now, before you go correcting my math, I made some not-real-life assumptions for this comparison,using the retirement calculator provided by social security.  I had to assume you both were retiring today...I had to assume you both made the same income over the past 30 years, I had to assume you both were 65 years old.
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Offline SHH

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« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2006, 11:24:00 AM »
Greg what is your solution to the elderly who retire and havent been able to afford to put money in a 401k because of their 500 a month medical insurance premium? How do you propose they survive? You havent specifically stated YOUR solution to the problem.

Also, I dont have time to address the points of your 2 last posts right now, but I will take issue with one thing in your previous post. You stated this:
"For example, explain why a more expensive house pays more in property taxes than a small house...is this fair?"
Why wouldnt a more expensive house have higher taxes? Are you suggesting that a 500,000 dollar house have the same tax as a 100,000 dollar house? What is your rationale for that? That makes no sense Greg. OF COURSE a more expensive house should have more taxes. Just like a 20 acre tract should be taxed higher than an acre lot.
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Offline SHH

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« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2006, 11:29:00 AM »
Greg, it is clear to me that you and I will never see eye to eye on this, because, obviously, we sit on opposite sides of the income bracket. You are defending the wealthy and I am defending the poor and middle class. If you had to pay in taxes what my entire salary was last year, then we definatly do not live in the same world. So maybe its just best that we agree to disagree.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2006, 11:47:00 AM »
I already agree we disagree. :grin:  :grin:

Thanks for playing, and have a nice day.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2006, 12:03:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-24 08:24:00, SHH wrote:

"Greg what is your solution to the elderly who retire and havent been able to afford to put money in a 401k because of their 500 a month medical insurance premium?


you don't want to get me started on our medical system, do you?

 :grin:  :grin:


Suffice to say, our medical system is one of the most morally corrupt systems on the planet.

Examples.

In Colombia, I had all my upper fillings removed and replaced with white fillings, a broken molar root canaled (spel?) and crowned, and my teeth professional whitened.  Cost?  $700 bucks.  Here just to have the molar done is around $1800.00.

In Thailand I had a Complete executive medical checkup with ultrasounding all my organs, complete blood work including tumor markers, chest xray, urine and bowel analysis,HIV test, Hep a,b,c test, stress test EKG among other health exams.  This was requested Friday, done saturday, and I met with a doctor on Sunday who presented me  with  a bound 30 page report with copies of all the tests (negative except slight anemia..due to travel..and also an elevated something that indicated I had slight inflenza).  This doctor went thru the results line by line and explained what each result meant.

This was done at a major international hospital.  The cost?  $320 dollars. In contrast, My girlfriend here had minor blood work done.  Cost?  $280 bucks...1 month wait to see the doctor, 2 week wait to get the results. Also, the doctor charge $170 for the office visit and exam.  Our appointment was at 9 in the morning, we left the complex at 2.


Thruout the world you can walk into a pharmacy and just order whatever drug you want.  For example, In the Dominican republic I got 1000 mg of azitrymcycina for $6 bucks.  Here, you must first get an appointment to go to a doctor $75.00 dollars and usually wait several hours, then go to the pharmacist and wait several hours and pay another 80 bucks for your Z-pack.  Total cost in time   5 hours, in dollars  $150 or so.  In other countries, 3 minutes and 5 bucks.


Some people may have seen the 20/20 episode where an american without insurance was dying and in need of a heart bypass.  They wanted 120,000 to do it.  He flew to thailand, was put up in  a nice hotel and had the surgery done for 12,000, including hotel and flight.  The doctors and equipment there are totally modern and the education requirements are very strict.


Something is way wrong in paradise.

But to answer your question, I think an elderly person who can't afford to live should be eligible for public assistance.  They should also interview the family and find out if they are just too lazy to help/house him/her, and then bill the family for his care if they won't


In other countries you care for your own.  Here we expect everyone else to care for our own.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2006-05-24 09:04 ]
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2006, 12:12:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-24 08:24:00, SHH wrote:



Why wouldnt a more expensive house have higher taxes?


The question SHH, is Why WOULD it?  What services are the people who live in the more expensive house consuming at a higher rate than the people in the smaller house?  property taxes, for instance, are used to pay for public schools.  Can you demonstrate that the people in the more expensive house use public school systems at a higher rate (hint;  no you can't).

So, you are burdened with explaining Why it is FAIR (again that dirty word) to charge people in more expensive houses more for their property taxes.  "of course" is not an argument.

Again, you may make the arguement successfully that it is necessary, but I don't think you can come up with a "fair" reason.

You see, SHH, I think you just haven't thought this thru.
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Offline SHH

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« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2006, 12:33:00 PM »
Ok, Ill go down this road again..since you dont seem to comprehend the concept. When you buy a lexus, you pay much more in sales tax then when you buy a chevy. When you buy a bag of groceries that costs 200 dollars, you pay more for those groceries than a bag of groceries that costs 50 dollars. When you buy a house, you pay more in recording fees for the more expensive house than you would for a cheaper house. IF all those things are true, why wouldnt a more expensive house have a higher tax bill? With your logic, the bag of expensive groceries should have the same sales tax as the cheaper, the lexus should be taxed the same as the chevy, etc etc. There is no logic in that Greg. If you have the money to buy a million dollar home, and a lexus, you have the money to pay more in taxes.

Oh, and Greg? displaying your world travels doesn't impress me. Ive traveled too. I used to live in Europe. I know what medical care is in other countries. I'm not that sheltered. [ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2006-05-24 09:44 ]
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Offline SHH

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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2006, 12:36:00 PM »
OH and by the way, I do take care of my own. I have my 102 yr old grandfather, 65 yr old disabled father, semi disabled husband, and 2 children living with me. I dont expect anybody else to take care of them. I do, however, expect some assistance from the govt for medical bills for my disabled father, since they were too cheap to pay for benefits for my father when he worked for the State Dept. and the DEA for 25 yrs.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2006, 01:47:00 PM »
What concept?  You still are devoid of an argument. Asserting it is fair doesn't make it so.


You do however resort to the "when absent of argument sling ad hominem" theory of debate.  Is that fair?    :grin:



So again, I ask you.  What makes it "fair" to tax a bigger house at a greater rate than a small house?  Remember we are not talking about necessity, but fairness.



here is some help.

Fair:  Merriam Webster;

 marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism b (1) :
 



Comport this theory with the above definition.

"it is fair because....(insert argument here)."
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2006, 01:53:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-24 09:36:00, SHH wrote:

"OH and by the way, I do take care of my own. I have my 102 yr old grandfather, 65 yr old disabled father, semi disabled husband, and 2 children living with me. I dont expect anybody else to take care of them. I do, however, expect some assistance from the govt for medical bills for my disabled father, since they were too cheap to pay for benefits for my father when he worked for the State Dept. and the DEA for 25 yrs. "


Sounds about right.  Now, if the government is helping your father with his medical bills, under what theory of fairness are they not paying your and my medical bills?  Is it fair to provide medical care for one segment of the population and not the other?  

So what is your argument here?  That they owe your father but not you and me?  again...


yes, it is FAIR that they provide my father with medical care but not you and me because...(insert argument).


In demonstrating fairness here, you must demonstrate why he deserves it but you and I don't, and why you and I should be burdened with paying for his medical care.

You see, SHH, socialzed health care for a segment of society (retirees, poor people) at the expense of the rest of society goes against the very definition of fair Since we are all burdened with paying the cost.  

Wouldn't you agree?

Now, argue the necessity for paying for some people but not others and you and I are on the same page, even tho we might not agree

You beginning to see what I am talking about yet?
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Offline SHH

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« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2006, 01:53:00 PM »
Greg, assuming your argument was valid about property taxes, the entire taxing world would have to change. Everything is taxed based on its value. If the home is worth more, its taxed more. What part of that doesnt make sense to you? Or are you purposely being dense on this one because youre the one with the bigger tax bill?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2006, 02:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-24 09:33:00, SHH wrote:

When you buy a lexus, you pay much more in sales tax then when you buy a chevy. When you buy a bag of groceries that costs 200 dollars, you pay more for those groceries than a bag of groceries that costs 50 dollars. When you buy a house, you pay more in recording fees for the more expensive house than you would for a cheaper house. IF all those things are true, why wouldnt a more expensive house have a higher tax bill? With your logic, the bag of expensive groceries should have the same sales tax as the cheaper, the lexus should be taxed the same as the chevy, etc etc. There is no logic in that Greg.



Your right there is no logic.  You just commited the fallacy of non-sequitor.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29


the question is, why would it?  You are asserting a positive claim, that a more expensive house should be taxed at the same rate as a less expensive house based on "fairness".

Support your argument or concede that you base this on something other than "fairness".

keep in mind that we all use more or less our government services, and fairness would dictate that we all pay the same.  When you force someone to pay someone else's way, fairness flies right out the window.



You also said I said a more expensive house should be taxed at the same rate as a less expensive house.  NEVER SAID IT, I just said it wasn't fair.  Is it necessary?  That is another question.  You are guilty thruout this entire exchange of mis-characterising my argument, presenting emotional responses,and using ad hominems.

I think you should change your argument.  Perhaps you support these progressive taxes for some other reason than fairness? I mean, here wer are and you haven't one time presented a fair reason for a progressive tax.  If you go back thru my posts you will get a clue as to why I think there are valid reasons for those with means coughing up a bit more than the average person, as they do.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2006-05-24 11:31 ]
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