ASR

[Anne Bonney]

I really do not appreciate the sarcasm. I am a professional in the field and had resources to get help for my son that many parents do not have--then I get the old saw that "psychologists' kids are always nuts."

Yeah well, I'm sure the kids in ASR didn't appreciate the degredation and humiliation.  It's for your own good.

Finally, I would not wish his older sister NOT to achieve-she has a life, too.

Me neither and I have no idea how you would get that out of what I posted.  I meant that it seems that 'achievement' (according to your standards) is very important to you and having a type A sister must have made that even harder on him.

That you can think a college student living in NYC with all that is there--is still brain washed--is just ridiculous. One of the reasons he is so successful IMO is that we got him into a program BEFORE he developed a drug habit trying to dull his own pain. However, since he left ASR, he has been in the mainstream of adolescent society and has had no problems with substance use or anything else that I would consider outside the norm for late adolescence.

I was brainwashed for a long damn time after I got out.  It happens.  All the time.

You ask me to look at OTHER programs--why should I--I didn't choose other programs, I chose this one. I believe that there are bad programs--that is why I worked so hard to find a GOOD MATCH for him.

I asked you to see the similarities between the programs.  You don't want to even look.  Ok.

I detail how concerned ASR and their pdoc (who was male, not female)  were with his suicidal ideation and you tell me he should have been  hospitalized--thanks for the advice six years after the fact. He was hospitalized and released in 36 hours--with no improvement--Duh, what is supposed to happen in 36 hours???

I'm saying that the last place a depressed, suicidal kid needs to be is somewhere that employs such tactics as LifeSteps, isolation and humiliation.

Perhaps that is what your life lacks.

You want to dwell in your past pain.

You live in your past pain--and I feel sorry for you--but time only goes in one direction. No matter what happened to you, if you want a life, you have to go forward--not spend your time verbally abusing a parent who is relating things that are really quite "proven" by a life lived well  so far, but one that provides hard evidence in the opposite direction of your beliefs--so you demean and deride me as a "rebuttal." It is not a rebuttal at all because he is living out his childhood dream in NYC.  All this at ASR happened to my son over 5 years ago and he is OK, actually much better than just OK--I wish you were, too, but you obviously are not.

Still

JustaMom

Why do you assume that I'm "not OK"?  I'm fine.  I've got two grown kids (sorry for the repeat folks, I know y'all have heard this a hunnert times now) who somehow managed to make it through adolescence without benefit of a program....even though both sets of grandparents (former program parents) and some of her school counselors were telling me she'd DIE if I didn't ship off my oldest one.  She's now a CNA working on her LPN to continue to her RN and ARNP.  Li'l sis is working for any attorney and getting ready to start nursing school in about 6 months.  Hubby of 16 years and I are quite content.  I come here to warn prospective marks about these places.  The more I read about them, the more I realize that nothing much has changed in 20 some years except they've gotten better at marketing themselves.

All I can say is I have no intention of registering at this site.

Um, ok.  I could care less.  It's a common thread amongst y'all program parents.  Stick your head in the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anne, if you want to argue with fictional characters, I've got a couple.

Shouldn't it also be really obvious by that this point that her author has her responding to allegations that aren't even made? I'll wager most of these responses are written well in advance.

No subtlety or finesse at all. :roll:

JustAMom/guest parent's author: Spend some time playing real time role-playing games like Paranoia or D&D, or possibly some forum RPs, before coming on here. Your lack of skill is appalling. Come back when you can imitate a human being properly. Before that, GTFO.

[Anne Bonney]

Anne, if you want to argue with fictional characters, I've got a couple.

Shouldn't it also be really obvious by that this point that her author has her responding to allegations that aren't even made? I'll wager most of these responses are written well in advance.

No subtlety or finesse at all. :roll:

Yeah, but I welcome the opportunity to keep bumping the ASR threads since the Who is hellbent on distracting everyone.

[hanzomon4]

Well bye justamom, it seems that you just can't face any criticism of your program. Everything you have said about your son seems to be related to his school experience(not his fault) and depression(not his fault). I to suffered(suffer) with depression and I'm not dead. My mom was worried but never desperate, which is probable why I never got programed. Point is his problems were not things he needed to fix it was all environment. The only reason you know about his school problems is because he was free to tell you about those problems. Not so in a program like ASR that uses peer-pressure as the backbone of the program. Don't believe me just read what you wrote about "peer-groups"(?lower school? "upper school") and Anne's quotes.  

Your glowing assignment of ASR is convincing but doesn't jive with the testimony of others who went to ASR or other programs. The reason I asked you to look at other programs was to understand the hostility here and to also see the similarities ASR has to confirmed abusive programs like Straight or CEDU, a program that resembles ASR to a frighting degree. If you were to read some other survivor stories you understand the whole brainwashing thing too.    

I'm not going to pressure you to stick around but I will post some more questions later hoping that you will answer them.    

Have any of you guys watched the French documentary on Landmark Education, I swear that justamom(and son) sounds like that lady who gave such a glowing account of her Landmark experience just before breaking down after she was shown how much it resembled a regular cult

[hanzomon4]

I will NOT tell you the ways in which my son is different because it could be used to identify him

What makes you think we're trying to identify your son?

[Anne Bonney]

Have any of you guys watched the French documentary on Landmark Education, I swear that justamom(and son) sounds like that lady who gave such a glowing account of her Landmark experience just before breaking down after she was shown how much it resembled a regular cult

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... emid=12url

I hadn't heard of that before.  It's pretty interesting.  Much of what they are describing occurs in TBSs.




more about landmark here.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html

[TheWho]

Well said ?Justamom? Thank you for stopping by to share your experience, your account was similar to my daughters experience.
 .  I am truly sorry you were ridiculed for sharing and wished I could had warned you, but expected it after reading the answers.  Kids (and their parents) who do well are not really accepted here as many here live in the past and have a difficult time seeing that change has occurred systematically since the 70?s (with some of these schools)  and if they didn?t have a similar experience they cannot relate.
Your son sounds like he really thrived there and then struck out on his own, you must be proud.  I am intimately aware of the adoption issues and applaud you for taking the time to care about your children enough to make that decision.  So many parents give up if local services fail to yield a positive result or change in hope that things improve for them and all the long the child suffers their way thru.  You took a proactive approach because you cared and I can guarantee you will never regret the time you lost with your son at ASR. Seeing my daughter grow and move on with her life is a pure joy to me and makes up for the lost time and the time we presently spend together.  I can?t say what path she would be on if she had never attended ASR but I know what path she is on today.
Thanks again, it is a breath of fresh air here at fornits

[Anne Bonney]

Compare this description of ASR to the LGATs described on the Cult Awareness and Information Center.    :scared:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=300

Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.
They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.
The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.
The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.
The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.
The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.
All in all I would say that these lifesteps are a clear indication of the cult like way that the academy is run. In addition I would like to comment on the pervasive nature of the levels and punishment/reward system that was in effect. Profanity was punishable by doing pushups, we were continually encouraged to report each other for anything and everything, for our own good. Dish duty would be assigned for having a shirt untucked or for not cleaning the dorm before breakfast adequately. Being late to meetings or classes had similar consequences. Consequences, not punishments. There was no such thing as a punishment at ASR, just like there were no rules, only Agreements. Since you agreed to not do this or that, you had already accepted the consequence for breaking the agreement. I don't remember ever signing a contract, but then again, since as a minor you don't really have rights or the ability to sign contracts, none of that matters. The point is, it was a very effective technique for fostering obedience through guilt. You didn't just fuck up, you went back on your word and let down the school. The rule system was so pervasive it was difficult to make it through an entire day without breaking at least one. Privileges were removed at the drop of a hat. If you read too many books, you were avoiding people, and weren't allowed to read for pleasure. If you were rude or rowdy you might go on a restriction and lose the privilege of any and all recreational activity for between 1 and 4 weeks. Restrictions could involve being on "bans" with groups or individuals in the school, such as "bans with all lower school students", or all females, all males, etc. You couldn't talk to people you were on bans with or you faced serious consquences. This often caused difficulty in coordinating schoolwork with therapy. Restrictions ended when counselors felt you'd accepted whatever you'd done was horribly wrong and you felt horrible about it/learned something. Then you'd tell the whole school about it and apologize at the end of the day meeting.
Academics are another concern. The options for classes were limited, the teachers often weren't qualified. My chemistry teacher was an English major who was only a chapter ahead of the class each week. He was filling in until they found someone who knew chemistry. Most of the teachers, even those qualified to teach their subject, did not know how to deal with kids with learning disabilities, or kids who acted out constantly. This had a negative effect on the amount of actual teaching that got done. Student's writings, paintings, etc. were often censored for being to dark, too imagey, too negative, too sexual, etc. Reading material was restricted, the library was full of outdated books and random novels, all of it unorganized. On numerous occasions books I'd found in the library were confiscated, apparently even some of them weren't appropriate.
Inmates faced a barrage of emotional abuse from counselors and students alike. Students tried to curry favor by enforcing rules and ratting on others. Once an accusation of rulebreaking, innapropriate behavior, telling "warstories" i.e. talking less than disdainfully about anything ASR didn't like, such as drugs, sex, stunts we'd pulled that got us sent there. Challenging the rules for any reason was being manipulative, denying an accusation was being in denial. Getting upset at false accusations was an attempt to intimidate the accuser. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least a third of the inmates were on either wellbutrin or adderall. You got to see one of the 2 psychiatrists the school employed, no one from outside. You weren't allowed to refuse medication either.
Some of the other issues in the program were a lack of policies on various issues such as religions, sexual orientation, and a number of other things. For example, Rudy Bentz the headmaster would frequently speak of a higher power in thinly veiled judeo-christian propaganda terms, and there was a clear preference for mainstream religions. Shortly after 9-11 in a schoolwide discussion, he failed to reprimand or even comment on an inmate yelling in front of the school an insensitive comment about "fucking towelheads". Wiccan or Buddhist students were often slighted, or accused of using the religion as part of their image rather than professing a sincere belief. Big fucking christmas tree up in the common room, slight chanukah concession for the few jewish kids, nothing for anyone else.
On other occasions, I was told by certain counselors that I did not know what my sexual orientation was and I was going through a delusional phase where I mistakenly believed I was bisexual. Yet other counselors told me it was normal and natural and to trust myself. The lack of clear policies on these and other issues created untold confusion and despair.
All in all, I think the program has absolutely minimal potential to help anyone, and most of the help it offers comes solely from the extended period of time away from a harmful home environment, and the substantial reflection it necessitates. The entire premise revolves around group mentality, breaking down and moulding psyches, a complex reward and punishment system combined with censorship and constant, constant, constant reinforcement of obedience that comes from never knowing whether or not you're "in agreement" (currently not violating or witholding a confession about past violations of the rules), and always worrying about being punished.
Through the use of repetitive propaganda, peer pressure, and psycholinguistics, the process of conveniently rephrasing everything to give it a slant that is in line with the belief you're trying to force upon a captive population. Rules are agreements, punishments are consequences, shoveling snow for 6 hours is "getting back in agreement", expressing your feelings in an unapproved manner is either acting out or manipulative behavior.
The Academy at Swift River has done untold damage to hundreds of children whose only crime was being born to parents who held them to unreasonable standards, often abused them mentally, physically and sexually, often were alcoholics or drug addicts or suffered from mental disorders, and thought that money could fix their kid. There is a certain amount of accountability on the parents part, but it's pretty much lip service when you get right down to it. Kids are beaten, berated, treated as less than human, and shipped away to prison without a trial when they understandably start to act out in these circumstances. They go through a 14 month sentence of emotional torture under questionable auspices, subjected to the horrors I've described above. To claim that the parents who sent them there are being called to task because they have to go through a 3 hour group therapy session once every 3 months and hear about how they fucked up their kid doesn't even begin to address the issues at hand.
The whole thing is a twisted mixture of cult and psych ward, it should be burnt to the ground and its founders should be jailed.

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12

DAY 1, Thursday evening. Agree or Else

The participants sign an agreement which includes non-disclosure of the processes used. It is my understanding that mental/therapeutic processess are not proprietary, and cannot be covered by patent, copyright or trade secret laws and thus violating nondisclosure cannot hold up in court. I will refrain from mentioning the name of the specific training I experienced and any process used in the training that cannot be documented elsewhere.

Dr. Margaret Singer writes about LGATs in her book, "Cults in Our Midst".
"The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers etc, when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic, confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically, socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be."

"Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, or trainer immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says. He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed."

The first day started Thursday evening around 7. After some introductory stuff welcoming people, etc. the trainer brings up *THE AGREEMENT*. The attitude and tone of voice of the trainer predictably becomes stern and unyielding in a way to purposely provoke a response from the attendees.

The first point brought up is about not revealing the processes or personal information that is shared. Since people will be sharing some very deep personal secrets then this is common sense but people do not know this in advance. The processes are not unique to the course and not proprietary but people do not know this.

The second point was about attending all the course including the followup session and also being on time. Several people objected to this stating they had other commitments family or otherwise. There were some people from out of town who could not make the next Tuesday evening followup.

Everyone of them was was met with unyielding harshness from the trainer. One of the arguments the trainer makes was if they would only "get it" they could make the space for the course in their schedule and "getting it" would also keep others from interrupting their attendance. "Getting it", of course means that we create our own reality or experience by our thinking and interpretation. However, this is not explained at this point and is designed only to provoke more responses from attendees. Several people storm out of the room. However there are ample staff people to handle those who leave. Outside, people are pressured by the staff to return to the course. Most end up coming back in the room while a few never return.

Other rules include not talking unless called upon, not sitting next to anyone you knew prior to the training, no eating, drinking, gum chewing, etc. Some people saw fit to argue with that. At this point the show begins to get quite boring as it had been over 3 hours that we were in the ballroom. At least we were allowed potty breaks as needed so I took one. When I got back the trainer was finishing up the agreements and we were asked to stand if we agreed. So we did. Then we were allowed a 20 minute break. We were reminded to be in our seats (precisely arranged and marked with tape on the floor) on time for the next part.

When we come back there is lecture which include some of the basic philosophy/pop psychology of LGATs. One can certainly read about the philosophy in John Hanley's book, Lifespring available from Lifespring (www.lifespringinc.com)

Later we were asked to pair off into a diad (one on one exercises). What we did was an awareness exercise of staring into the other persons eyes in silence for several minutes. Then we were asked to introduce ourselves and have a conversation. At the end of the exercise we were guided to close our eyes and remind ourselves of how we behaved in the exercise, did we open up and share or did we talk superficially.

Then we did "The Trust Exercise". This consists of milling around the room, looking people in the eyes for a minute and stating one of only three things.

1) I trust you.
2) I don't trust you.
3) I don't know if I trust you.

This goes on for ten or fifteen minutes. At the end we were again instructed to close our eyes and review what we did from the vantage point of being above the crowd. Let me point out that there is a lot of closed eye guided exercises in these courses. By closing your eyes and going within one usually enters an alpha or hypnotic state and is much more suggestible then normal.

These courses also use popular music to set the mood. After the trust process we were instructed to sit on the floor and we listened to Jackson Browne's "The Pretender".

THE PRETENDER

I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen

I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen

Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the ice cream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the Pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there

Ah the laughter of the lovers
As they run through the night
Leaving nothing for the others
But to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams
Sail out of sight

I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again

I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie In those things that money can buy
Thought true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the Pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender

(c) 1976 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC

(You can get the lyrics to damn near anything off the web :-)

During the song the trainer periodically lowers the volume and instructs people to focus on their inauthentic, pretending behaviors. The tone of the trainer's voice is negative and rebuking like we are worthless pitiful pretending creatures. "Are you there? Or are you just pretending."

In my conscious mind I am somewhat amused by all of this. In my subconscious I can feel awareness of all my senses increasing. One cannot resist the psychological opening that occurs in these courses.

After the exercises the group has to rearrange the chairs to the tape on the floor. The group is timed and encouraged to beat the previous time. This is just another way to get the group to respond to the trainer on demand. By this point nobody resists the trainer.

After this it is 1 AM and time to go home being reminded to be there the next night at 7. If people go to work the next day which I did, it makes for a night of very little sleep.

Continuation here...

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=12

[TheWho]

Yes, anne, I remember conversing with goodtobefree and his accounts of ASR were similar to what my Daughter went thru although thru a much darker view.  The life steps are real but seemed a little off from what my daughter went thru.  She didnt see them as intense as he did, she saw it as positive as did the kids in her peer group.  She didnt have the abusive yelling etc., didnt see the reflections on her childhood as hurtful, but more as "Wow I never thought of it that way" or "yes, my parents did suck for not listening to me when I wanted to go out etc.",  "Its okay to feel this way"  ...etc...  many emotions came out but it wasnt a bad experience for everyone.
I think it was a terrible experience for "Gootobefree" , my heart went out to him as we talked.  I dont think  that he should not have attended ASR.  I dont know the answer some kids dont do well.  Maybe they have improved the screening process since, I dont know.  But the last thing we want to do is turn a blind eye to those who are helped each year.  We should continue to improve the schools so that they can reach more and more kids.

[Anne Bonney]

Which is why I started the thread over in TTI about coercive "therapy", mind control, behavior modification and the like.  You think this form of treatment is not only benign but useful.  You claim it "works".  I'll agree it "works" in the sense that it changes someone...it's a question of how that change is brought about and ultimately what it does to the person psycologically.  In the immediate sense and long down the road.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20576

[TheWho]

I do feel that Goodtobefree was a wreck after he left ASR.  I dont know the circumstances of what lead up to him going there but he didnt leave in a good space and /or regessed very quickly.  My heart really did go out to him as we spoke and in my opinion would be the poster child for why some kids should not be placed in TBS's.  Goodtobefree's is a good account to keep around, but please listen to the kids that do well also and the parents who come here to tell their stories.  They can be just as compelling, honest and forthright, speaking from the heart just like GTBF did.  It would be nice to create a level field where everyone could be comfortable with speaking about their experiences not just those who oppose TBS's.

[Anne Bonney]

:rofl:  :rofl:  :roll:  ::noway::

God you're pathetic.

[TheWho]

:rofl:  :rofl:  :roll:  ::noway::

God you're pathetic.

sorry to offend you, I just think the forum should be open to both.

[Anne Bonney]

sorry to offend you,

You don't offend me.  You offend your daughter and potential marks.

 

I just think the forum should be open to both.

Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.

[TheWho]

sorry to offend you,

You don't offend me.  You offend your daughter and potential marks.

 

I just think the forum should be open to both.

Your presence would indicate that it obviously is.

well it does, yes, you are right.  But by level field, I am talking about discussions from parents who have had a good experience.  You have to admit if 2 parents came on here, one who said the TBS mislead them and took their money and another who said their child is doing great, they would be treated the same?