Author Topic: A Good Experience  (Read 2181 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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A Good Experience
« on: February 21, 2003, 08:37:00 AM »
On the contrary I attended the Seed in the seventies and it was a good experience for me and my whole family.  My brother shot heroin at 14 and we were sure there wasn't much hope for him.  He's now in his late fourties, and a professional as well as myself.  I am grateful for the help my whole family recieved and have very fond memories filled with alot of love.  Sure there was disipline, I was not alowed to do alot of the things I did before ( like drugs & shoplifting). If it wasn't for the Seed I really don't know what would have happened to my whole family...
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 10:47:00 AM »
Welcome. This has always been of great interest to me.

That two people can go thru essentially the same experience and come out with two very different results.

For me, the Seed was a defining moment of my childhood and the ultimate destruction of my ego and my family. It took me years to recover and my teenage years were ruined and my family is still divided on some level over this issue.

I commonly talk to people who take your attitude, that it was tough but you needed something. Usually, my observation has been that these people haven't really confronted the actual process that occured there, the breakdown of individuality and rebuilding of self under a cultic model and the worship of the Seed and Art Barker that was required. Hell, some people don't care and just subscribe to the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" theory on life.

Whatever floats your boat. I won't discount your experience but would love to hear more. Also, what Seed location were you in? When? Also, shooting heroin at 14? Damn, that seems extreme...

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 11:20:00 AM »
If it wasn't for the Seed I really don't know what would have happened to my whole family..."


You know, that is the thing...no one really knows because you cannot change the path you went down.

However.Think of the majority of your friends now. Most of them that grew up in the 70s did drugs, stole, etc.  but most are okay today...some our of national leaders (our president was a coke head).

Some are not. How many of them had to be locked in a wherehouse in order to survive? How many had to profess their love for a middle aged cult leader in order to go home to their mother? To eat a decent meal? To urinate or defecate without being humiliated? To sleep properly? To gain any humanity whatsoever?

Then think of all the Seed graduates you know...where are they? Some are doing great..I know I am (no credit to the Seed I endured despite that place).

And then theree are the others...the graduates that didn't make it. One I know just died a junkie.  Several I know of jumped off the skyway. Some from deep on Art's inside have written me and expressed grief and outrage over what happened to them...the allegations are frightening from some. One of my best friends from high school, fellow seed graduate David Leverone, flamed himself in the arm with an eight ball and died some 20 years ago.

And what of those beaten and sexually humiliated,screamed at,forced to hold their urine in for hours, to look straight ahead always, to not think without punishment(no getting into your head)...forced to always smile that "seedling smile" or be punished, started over, refreshed?


How about those of us locked in rooms, reduced to tears in front of the group, kipnapped from school? Coerced to sexual confessionals and public drug confessionals?Forced to endure beatings from parents at the direction and insistence of staff and in front of them, then returned to group and stood up and humiliated?

And before you deny any of this, I have newspaper articles from the time and articles from national publications  confirming that my memories are not false.


What would of happened to your family without the Seed? I honestly don't know....but my question to you is;

Do you really credit the Seed with your success?


 

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 02:58:00 PM »
Greg- do you only want people to agree with you?
It does kinda sound like that.  I think everyone has their right to their opinion.  You sound a bit defensive.
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Offline JDavid

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A Good Experience
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 03:14:00 PM »
Defense is the reaction to offense.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 03:24:00 PM »
On 2003-02-21 11:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg- do you only want people to agree with you?
It does kinda sound like that. I think everyone has their right to their opinion. You sound a bit defensive."



Not at all Do I just want this to be a forum where we all agree on every point. What fun would that be? On every level you are misenterpreting my reason for posting my opinion.

This is called the seed DISCUSSION forum. In order to discuss, don't we have to lay our opinions and knowledge on the table? I have done so very candidly and honestly and have steadfastly avoided ad hominems on those that disagree with me. If you look at the entire Fornits site, The SDF stands out as one tolerant of all sides of the issue. If you read thru the entire SDF  you will see that  I have taken great effort to welcome those with opposing viewpoints and will continue to do so.

I also will continue to post what I deeply feel to be the truth, will share my research with all Seed Survivors  and I welcome honest rebuttal.

Go ahead, let the discussion begin....




Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'> Thomas Jefferson, 1787

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2003, 11:23:00 AM »
Anyone who credits the Seed with their success is on drugs. I graduated, was on staff and
i denounce it to everyone.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 01:09:00 PM »
As an outsider looking in, I find this forum particularly interesting.  I would encourage the individual with the good experience to address each and every point raised by greg.  I would be able to find his argument convincing if there were something  substantial in terms of evidence that he could present to support his arguments.  I wonder, for example, why, or how his brother came to be shooting heroin at the age of 14.  
A large percentage of people who end up as drug addicts seem to have mental health problems, and there's a bit of a chicken and egg argument here.  Is drug use symptomatic of an attempt at self medication -- to feel good as a counterbalance to a life of misery and low self-esteem.  So, why did your brother get into using drugs in the first place?  Why did you?  What did The Seed give you and your parents that you didn't already have?  Was it a process of "positive disintigration"  breaking you down to build you up? Or was it something else?  I need to be informed!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2003, 02:47:00 PM »
Me too, please inform me. I am VERY interested in what you gained or perceived to gain from your Seed experience and how you weigh that against the negatives of thought reform.

You have my word that I will consider each and every word your write carefully..

Greg.
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Offline thom263

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A Good Experience
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2003, 10:57:00 PM »
I have to admit my feelings about the seed are higly ambivalent to  say the least. But i think anyone who is shooting up at 14 has a very big problem that is only gonna get worse! In my case i think that the seed was the lesser of two evils.I was 16 when i went in,and I was drinking and smoking refer(daily). Dealt a little,hung out alot.Places like  7/11 and Lake Vista, and "missed" around 80+ days of the 10th grade.The most important thing i learned from the seed was that my family was dysfuntional,and my family was part of my problem.They were 100 per cent right on that,and when i got started over, they knew why i'd split from home.They sent me back my OldComers family(for 2 months!).They were very nice people. I still question the methods and excesses of the seed, but the program gave me some insight and got me off the streets.    :???:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2003, 07:09:00 PM »
Hey Thom, long time no hear.  I agree with one thing you said...The Seed very clearly demonstrated to me how messed up my family was. The mere fact they placed my sister and I in such a disjointed messed up place, adopted the cultic special language with glee  and forced us to worship a middle aged chain smoking alcoholic cult leader clearly drove that point home.


The streets of 7-11 Lake Vista, Eh? I remember those places vividly and don't think "the streets" is a fair description.  But messed up, sure...I think we all were to varying degrees, and If anyone was firing heroin at 14 then I agree they had a HUGE problem.

I still wouldn't put them in that nuthouse, though, if it were my kid...I would find something a little less Jim Jonsey if you know what I mean.
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Offline Antigen

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A Good Experience
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2003, 08:37:00 PM »
On 2003-03-03 16:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
 I agree with one thing you said...The Seed very clearly demonstrated to me how messed up my family was. The mere fact they placed my sister and I in such a disjointed messed up place, adopted the cultic special language with glee and forced us to worship a middle aged chain smoking alcoholic cult leader clearly drove that point home.


ROFL!!! That's too funny! I never thought of it that way. I suppose that's because it took me another 20 years to really get the point. Thanks for a good laugh.

The people's right to change what does not work is one of the greatest
principles in our system of government

--Richard M. Nixon

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2003, 11:39:00 AM »
If the Seed was a good experience for you, then your family must have been some horror show. I guess it's all relative. You and your family apparently went through the program with your eyes closed. Were you not aware of all the controversy surrounding the Seed -- in the media, and elsewhere?  Were you not aware of how many millions Art Barker "took" from very desperate parents?  Are you not aware that drug rehab is a very profitable business?  Do you not know that Art Barker's business strategy was to emphasize recruitment of children of doctors and lawyers? Are you not aware that most Seedlings had no significant drug problems, but that Art Barker used fear as a recruitment strategy with their parents?  Are you not aware that for every one Seedling that feels "saved," there are twenty, thirty, forty more who feel robbed, tricked, humiliated, angry?

By the way, if your "saved" brother is a professional, I sure hope he spells better than you do.  How do *you* define professional?  In my book, it's "educated."
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Offline FueLaw

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A Good Experience
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2003, 05:55:00 PM »
Whoever started this thread is one of the biggest schmucks to ever trod the face of the earth. It's a great experience to get your head beat in, get brainwashed and otherwised mentally tortured, have your support system torn apart with nothing to replace it, have people pretending to help you and your family who had absolutely no qualifications to administer such help.

Just because things turned out ok for you doesn't mean the Seed was worth a shit. I became a lawyer, so what ! It certainly wasn't because of the seed.

Everytime I hear a story about a life ending early, such as Big Frank, I get pissed and I think back to 30 years ago when I was in the group. I wonder how many other Big Frank's there are out there ?

To Art Barker, Libby, John Underwood, Robert Chun, Suzzy Connors, Scott Baretsky and all you other scumbags that were ever staff members "EAT SHIT & DIE". You scumbags, and the people that think and believe as you do, are lower than the slime at the bottom of a sewer.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2003, 06:37:00 PM »
"Everytime I hear a story about a life ending early, such as Big Frank, I get pissed and I think back to 30 years ago when I was in the group. I wonder how many other Big Frank's there are out there ?"

There are very many people that attende the Seed who feel utterly worthless and ashamed and cannot identify why. Just this year We lost two graduates THAT I KNOW OF to drug overdoses/abuse. I got an email last week from someone who is a ward of the state of Florida. Aother wrote me the day before yesterday and said they have had problems ever since the seed and is currently on medication to help her deal with it. Three months ago Art fucking Barker told a journalist that he has a 90% success rate. He still, to his death, is taking that lie with him.

The seed was no joke for thousands of kids, now adults, that tried unsuccessfully to bury the nightmare.

consider it unburied. I will keep this message site going for no other reason than to honor the names of those that didn't make it.

So, Dave Leverone.....Big Frank....Mr. Kienzle....the unnamed kid that shot himself in the head before group thirty years ago, and all the other fallen graduates, this site is dedicated to you.

 

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use

--Galileo Galilei

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