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Offline Antigen

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F---ed
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »
Yeah, Marc. I hear ya.

For most of my time in affiliation w/ the cult, I wasn't the kid in the program. I was the little sister. So I didn't fully understand what was going on when my older brothers and some of their friends went in. All of our real friends quit coming around and my mom told me, if she bothered to tell me anything, that this was way, way better! We have Seed love now! Well, little kids being little kids will accept whatever the tribe favors and play along as best as they can. But it bugged me. When my brothers came back home, they were busy.

Not that we ever had been the Brady Bunch or anything. But there was something different, missing, weird and deeply disturbing. Everybody said they loved me and each other and I said it back, but it was confusing as hell. Love ya? I don't even know ya'. And these loving people never did hang around very long or become a part of that get along I remembered. But that old druggie past was gone and, I was told in every possible way, we're better for it. So who was I to argue? I threw myself into it, following my family. But I never caught up. My tribe had gone somewhere wonderful and left me out and didn't seem to miss me at all, or even themselves.

It was spooky.

My dad always held onto some reservation about it all. But toward the end there around `82 or so, even he was pretty thoroughly brainwashed against me. More bitter still, unlike my mom, he never loved the cult. Always chaffed under the forced public intimacy and many, many other subtle and overt aspects of the whole thing. But he was it seemed, brainwashed pretty hard against me. That pretty nearly blew my mind. It left me jaded.

Funny thing. After two kidnapping attempts, an extradition, some weeks at a group home and a court date against my parents and some Straight ppl, I returned to Stone Mountain to my job at Arbey's. These folks had known me for, oh, maybe a month or so? And they noticed a change in me. My boss asked me what was wrong, why I was so angry and mean since coming back from Florida. I cried real tears. I hadn't had that kind of just normal friendship in so long, I was beginning to think it had all been my imagination.

And before you can get all rude, Lauderdale, no, this was nothing inapropriate. Just an old dude w/ kids of his own who enjoyed his job managing teenaged and college age employees just asking why I seemed so angry and unhappy. I just told him I had learned a lot on that trip.

What I learned is that no good deed ever goes unpunish. I had been carrying a torch for something that was, for all I could tell, long dead and  buried and happily so as far as anyone else cared.

I wasn't broken and defeated by my time in Group. I held out, waiting for my liberty to go rejoin the human race. When it finally was over, it seemed as though no one noticed the passing of our elan vital.

So yeah, I do stick on this, stubournly. Whenever I hear someone gushing about how wonderful the Seed was, especially members of my own family, it comes accross as "Oh, I like you and me and everything much better this way!"

I don't know about the hundreds and hundreds of others. I think they're at WalMart right now doing their pre-shift LGAT session or arguing out whether to vote for the blue bellied Fabians or the red bellied Fabians, if they're even vaguely aware of the coming elections.

The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060007761/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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F---ed
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2006, 02:10:00 PM »
Eudora I wasn't thinking a rude thought...

I was actually feeling sorry for your messed up time.

Somehow my family that was totally fuc*** up in the 60's and 70's and all landed pretty well after alot of events occured.

In the 60's My mom was in and out of nut houses having nervous breakdowns and getting psyco analyzied.  In my opinion, mostly because my grandfather remarried after my grandmothers death to someone the same age as my mother and the money no longer was going to her.

My dad was a drunk. A somewhat functioning one. He did go to AA and spent the last 25 years sober & happy before he died. By the way he was very very involved with AA.  They divorced, remarried each other and divorced each other again.

One of my siblings went through the program and never stepped into the doors again. She's one of my closest friends today.  My other 3 brothers never went through the program.  I never thought they needed to.  Especially the one thats ten years younger than me.  I onced asked him about 20 years ago when he was 21 if he had ever even smoked pot.  He replied "no I have never had a Marijuana cigarette".  Since he said it like that I believed him.  

I was away from my family for a number of years , years ago.  That was probably the best all the way around for all of us.

Today my mother is 80 happier than she has ever been.  (& not just because she out lived my father) (a little humor).

I just spent Easter with my entire family.  We had a blast.
 
I honestly enjoy all of them and them me.  

We really do love each other & it shows.  I would do anything for any of them.  They are family.

I think I honestly learned that from the Seed.

I'm grateful for my life and what I have.
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Offline cleveland

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F---ed
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2006, 03:42:00 PM »
I can't deny that I went to the program looking for a sense of belonging and family, and in part, I got it. I went through the 'hazing' of being a newcomer, I learned the new seed vocabulary and behavior, and I did my best to fit in. I remembered, after reading Marc's account, how I felt when I betrayed my best 'pre-Seed' friend by essentially lying about him, calling him a druggie and saying that he didn't care about me. I loved this guy like a brother, and he was a casual pot smoker at worst. Once I crossed that bridge it was easy to try to totally yield to being 'straight.' And I still didn't know what being straight was - all I knew was that being straight was whatever Art and the Seed said it was.

Then I saw other people that I loved, go from being 100% Seedlings - people I admired and respected, some were on staff - to being persona non grata (Bob Ch***, Ray K., my brother - some were gone for good, some just 'started over' - but I was increasingly cynical. My new 'family' was as unpredictable as my old one in some ways.

When I left the Seed, I felt terribly ashamed and rarely talked about it. When I did, people acted as I expected - as if I had two heads or a hunchback. I felt it was further evidence of failure on my part.

Is some ways, I felt that my Seed experience had been positive. I did feel that I understood people much better than I had as a really naive, unhappy teenager. I also knew how to 'fake it til you make it' and act happy when I wasn't - valuable in social situations.

However I was plagued by insecurity, self-doubt and loneliness - since I felt them pre-Seed, I can't say that the Seed was a cause. But at any rate I did a lot of soul-searching after I left.

In some ways I felt total freedom - since I had already completely remade myself once, it was now easier to remake my life. That prepared my for big life changes - new jobs, careers, ending one marriage and starting another. I wonder, if I had never been in the Seed, would I be as resilient. And is that good or bad, or am I missing something I would have had if I had never been in the Seed?

I don't know. Like Lauderdale, I am a happy, loving, person today. And maybe I'm just lucky to be able to say so.

w[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2006-04-19 12:43 ]
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Offline marcwordsmith

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F---ed
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2006, 12:45:00 AM »
Well, we all have weird and troubled stories, I think, but I give the prize to Ginger. Most of our families were sucked up to some degree into a cult; Ginger's family WAS a cult! Actually, it's amazing, Ginger, what you've done--giving us this forum, and giving everyone all the survivor forums--as a way of responding to your intensely weird, cult-drug-rehab-suffused childhood. Talk about turning weakness into strength! I mean . . . thank you.

Walter, I understand your ambivalence, because you're a happy person now and wouldn't change anything. My suspicion is that the reason you're happy now is because you're a kind, honest, open-hearted, intelligent, naturally self-aware person who, one way or another, was going to do the soul searching necessary to find peace and clarity in life, with or without an ordeal like The Seed.

For myself, when people ask me, I put it like this: I wouldn't trade the life I have now for any hypothetical alternative life I might have had if I could have avoided the Seed.

But at the same time, if the clock was turned back to 1972 and I was fourteen years old again, and some god-like entity told me that I could go through the Seed again and live the life I've lived, with the wonderful adulthood I've had and all the blessings in my life today, OR skip the Seed and take my chances, I would skip The Seed and take my chances.

I interviewed Maia Szalavitz by phone in early March, and I submitted the interview to THE SUN magazine, for possible publication. Don't know yet if they'll use it, but I am going to take a little liberty here and quote a relevant portion of it. Speaking of all the "tough love" programs in aggregate, she said this:

"Based on my observations, the people who seemed to get the least damaged were those who basically said 'This is fucked up, and I?m just gonna fake it until I make it.' Another subgroup of people who did reasonably well were those who genuinely did have big drug problems. They didn?t have to make up a lot of false confessions, and they could believe they were being helped. The people who did absolutely the worst were those who really didn?t have much of a problem going in, but who had to make up stuff, and who resisted doing so, and therefore got the most punished."
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Offline Antigen

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F---ed
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2006, 09:39:00 AM »
Thanks, Lauderdale. It honestly does mean a lot to me for you to respect my side of things.

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys

--P.J. O'Rourke

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Offline GregFL

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F---ed
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2006, 09:40:00 AM »
I think Maria might have oversimplified that.  What about the mentally ill or insecure kid that was emotionally thrashed on a regular basis?  Or the people's whose families all joined in and then rejected them for their non compliance?  How about someone deeply in love who had to reject his/her partner in order to gain freedom?  Or those 16 year olds that choose a homeless life on the run over lockdown in the seed?  

It wasn't only seedlings that were hurt, either.  Imagine those parents and siblings of seedlings  that got rejected for years and years because their adult kids disappeared into the "seed family".  Imagine the heartbreak of these people.

For every success story, there is an alternative scorched earth scenario.   Some people just got chewed up by the 'love' of the Seed in ways that I still don't think those pro-seedlings really really get it.
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Offline cleveland

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F---ed
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2006, 11:22:00 AM »
That's an interesting question - what would my life be like, if I had never entered the Seed.

Well, based upon Maia's interview, I was one of the kids that would have been most damaged - a non-drug addicted, long-term Seed resident.

I also had some serious emotional issues. Like many of us, I came from a deeply damaged family environment. A very unhappy, alcoholic, divorced, messed up environment. I turned a lot of my pain inward, and became depressed, anxious and socially withdrawn. What I had would now be called Social Phobia, but there was no diagnosis like that then.

There are more opportunities for someone who is suffering today, to connect with others and to learn about issues, via the internet. An unhappy 17 year old today can find a lot more support then I had, I think. Of course, there are just as many quacks and false prophets around, too.

So, if I could have found a happy family-type environment, based upon friendship, AND found help with the overwhelming feelings of panic and shame that were choking off my sense of happiness with life, then YES - I would have loved to have spent seven years more productively, going to school, making friends, exploring careers. As it was, I had to jump back into life at (it felt old then) at 26 years, and scramble to 'do' life again. My Seed years were pretty much a dead end - although I have reconnected with a few of my friends through this forum, it's 20 years later and we aren't connected in the same way that my wife is with her college friends, who are life-long friends. I don't have any lifelong friends, and my family life has that 7 year gap that might never be bridged.

So - what a question.
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Offline Antigen

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F---ed
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2006, 12:48:00 PM »
You guys listening to or watching this?
http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=2775

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller

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Offline Antigen

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F---ed
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 01:05:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-04-20 08:22:00, cleveland wrote:

 it's 20 years later and we aren't connected in the same way that my wife is with her college friends, who are life-long friends. I don't have any lifelong friends, and my family life has that 7 year gap that might never be bridged.


Me too. I have found a couple of really good friends who I "went to school with". But having that particular dark chapter in common, all that dark matter is a part of the get along. Still, better than being lonely; probably valuable and wonderful in equal preportion to the dark stuff.

A fundamentalist Christian President who claims God told him to invade Iraq ? an act that killed more than 150,000 civilians, mostly women and children ? is not that much different from a fundamentalist Islamic fanatic who claims it is the will of Allah that he send young men to America to crash airliners into office buildings and kill 3,000 plus.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7501.shtml' target='_new'>DOUG THOMPSON

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Offline GregFL

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F---ed
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2006, 08:42:00 PM »
Well Ginger, in all situations there is good.  Had we not been childhood victoms of this treatment modality, we would not be friends today.  It is nice to have someone just to call once in a while and shoot the bull with.

So, I guess in a way the Seed gave me Ginger.  This is one thing I guess I can thank the Seed for.

Thanks Art!

 :grin:
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Offline marcwordsmith

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F---ed
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 09:15:00 PM »
Hey! I did listen to the Cato Institute forum today, with Maia Szalavitz and Walter's brother, Evan Wright. Good show! I thought they were both excellent.

Some of what Evan had to say was particularly interesting. Boxing matches in The Seed?? OY! Art leading the group in original songs, with a ukelele? Dear GOD, now THAT is torture! "Homo Superious"? Well, during my time, they talked of Seedlings as "superior human beings" but we didn't have an actual anthropological term for it yet!  

Whew! Things really did get more and more twisted, didn't they? I had no idea.
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Offline Anonymous

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F---ed
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2006, 08:01:00 AM »
Hey Marc you sound like you are pretty high up on your own podium.  What floor are you on?  Sounds like the penthouse. ::birthday::  ::blushing::  ::bigmouth::
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2006, 09:09:00 AM »
You go, bro!

Man, I am proud of my brother.

I am glad that Maia has written this book, and glad that he has been able to appear with her at this event.

Interesting point he makes, about how in AA, you have to 'hit bottom' before you can accept help. In coercive therapies, whether it's a boot camp, drug rehab, or christian school, they want to force the hitting bottom part. I mean, it's what they've been doing in the military forever, but to go through this for its own sake...and there are a lot of ex-military out there who don't adjust well to life outside of the military structure.

Fascinating.
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Offline cleveland

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F---ed
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2006, 09:14:00 AM »
I read this on another thread regarding a christian academy, and I think it speaks to how shame, power and control can corrupt these schools and treatment centers. She writes so well; I wish her the best:

"Hey, all. I went to VCA in year 2002. I am now 18. My name Is Rachel Haygood. I am sure you remember if you went the same year I did. I was odd, that's for sure. Hehe.  
I would like to tell about a choice few of my experiences at Victory Christian Academy.
My first day at VCA, my father had paid my uncle and cousin I had never met to pick me up from a mental facility in Orlando, Fl and transport me to VCA. I was a cutter, had severe emotional issues from past abuse at home and at school. I was also suicidal. I had been diagnosed with Bipolar disorder over 6 times by different doctors. I was on paxil at the time. I was also ADD, and had a hard time in school. I had always been very intelligent and creative child, but needed a different approach on learning considering I learn differently from most people.
My Uncle and cousin sat on either side of me in their truck the entire way to Jay, Fl, where the school was located. Their doors were locked at all times, and when we pulled over to a rest stop they waited outside the bathroom for me. You would have thought they were taking me to prison. I didn't know where I was going. My mom had sent me a letter telling me they had found a nice, christian place for me to live with people who would get me on track. I did't know what to think. When i arrived at VCA, my uncle hugged me and left me with these people. The grounds were nice and well manicured. There was a big house-looking building.There were flowers. Little did I know it was the girls who were forced to keep up the entire place like slaves. The people there stared at me. Some of the younger girls seemed to look in envy at my pants. I wore a pair of my cousin's old kaki cargos. I then noticed what everyone was wearing. they wore these masculine-looking shorts that were baggy and came down to their knees. Some of the women who seemed older and in charge told me to come with them. They seemed, calm, and expressionless. They surrounded me and weren't at all phased by my fear and confusion of being dropped off at a cultic- seeming place where I was supposed to do what I was told with little explanation of where I was and who they were. They took me to a room and told me to undress in front of them. I refused. i was terrifed and they were all staring at me. Ms Charity and Ms Betty told me if I didn't undress immediately so I could shower they would make me shower by undressing me by force and throwing me in. I backed away and they grabbed me. It was so scary to me that I can't even recall all of it. I know my eyes were closed most of the time. They called in Brother John Kissel, who is male, and helped them hold me down and take off my clothes, then dump me in the shower and turn it on cold.I don't know if you can imagine being molested in that fashion by one, complete strangers, and two, someone of the opposite sex. But it caused me a lot of emotional problems in the future.
I was told if I didn't get saved, I would never go home. This is how they would manipulate us. No one got "saved". Girls were terrified. And they wanted to be cared for. Most of the girls there had been abandoned already by their parents, and they felt they only had their captors, being VCA staff to bond with and trust. They made many of us believe we wouldn't make it in the outside world, saying we needed them and the school to survive.Many girls got to a point that they were sick of being locked in the "Get-Right Room" For having their own beleifs or religions, or not going along with the brainwashing in the school. They were sick of being denied simple things like candy after meals, or soda on friday, or even their medications because they were a "sinner". I remember when I was denied my medication because I was "Misbehaving" by not walking fast enough for the girl who was watching me. Katherine Tillet was by buddier and was given permission to put her hands on me and push me whenever she wanted to, if I wasn't walking fast enough for her, or if I didn't get out of bed fast enough in the morning, she could drag me out by my hair. I remember being dragged by my arm down two flights of stairs by Ms Katie.Kathering was rough and took pleasure in the power she had been given by the staff. She would flatter them, suck up, lie, do anything to make them give her approval. They understood her grovelling, and even made fun of her behind her back for it. It was really sad. But she never saw it. Katherine got permission to punish me for swearing by making me lie in a thin gown with not even a sheet on the hard, dorm floor and with not even a pillow for three nights.Girls who had been in the school for much longer had no pity, most of them. Some liked watching new girls go through that; some laughed at me when they walked by. I was very cold, and got no sleep, as is to be expected.
I went on about only a few of the physical abuse situations I encountered. Now I will tell about some emotional abuse.
Daily, either Brother Palmer or Brother Brown would scream at us during chapel, telling us we were "dirty, discusting pigs and whores" and that we were "going to hell" and that if we were homosexual God hated us more than anything else. I remember one time when Brother Palmer took a poor girl, Amy F., and had her sit in front of the chapel, facing the entire room. He told her she had slept with her boyfriend back home, and that she was worthless and sick. He screamed at her and about her, cutting her down until she cried violently.She cried until her entire face was red with tears. He was mad at her because she was caught talking about things besides God, and her parents. We weren't allowed to talk about radio, movies, friends, games, TV, bands of any kind,music exept for hymns, and we couldn't even say the word 'Pants" Because good women didn't wear pants in their opinion, and they were a sign of a rebellios women who didn't follow after her husband like a stupid sheep. Ironically, they taught us to be housewives, have kids, and worship our husbands, when the women there did none of this. they weren't humble, they weren't a crown to their husbands; instead, they were overly-bold and controlling women-staff. They were manipulative to the men, and then told us differently. Ms Betty always told me that the husband would come first. That we were to work for the men and let them make all the choices and decisions in all matters; that we had no say. She claimed to be a humble and meek wife, always respecting her husband and being by his side. Ms Betty was loud, controlling, nosy, talked all the time, loved to intimidate girls and make herself look like someone to be afraid of.She would make sure she got her way,all the time. I never saw God in her. One time Brother Brown was preaching chapel on homosexuality. He said that if we thought it was wrong and they were going to hell,to stand up in chapel. The girls that didn't stand up, he made other girls yell at and put down, and make fun of. It was cruel, sick, and satanic in my opinion. He was very intimidating when he wanted to be. He would scream. He had a very loud voice, and quite a temper.It was like one big mind-bubble. It was trance they had you in. And if anyone broke that trance of belief, they would be silence, one way or another. They wouldn't let you voice your thoughts. They would go through my things periodically and throw my writings (poems, stories) away because I wasn't "writing about scripture". We had no privacy at the school, no way to contact anyone or anything from the outside world. It was all forbidden, and "Worldly". You were not permitted to make friends. If you did, they would put you on separation, where you would have to wear a pink shirt every day. Girls who were a suspect of talking about things that weren't VCA subjects, like God, Bible, how much you loved VCA and how it helped you, etc, were put on the pink shirt rule, and were looked down upon and ridiculed by other girls. No one wanted to talk to you because you were "bad" and it would make them look bad if they were too nice to you.It was hard having few friends and people to rely on and talk to.I know for a fact many VCA girls begged God every night to show their ignorant parents what was really going on at the school. You may have gotten closer to God there, but it wasn't because of their torture and cultic practices. It was because of the pain of being left with people who acted nice and civil in front on your parents, sane, even. And when they left, the real horrors began.Many girls grew to hate God because this was the only thing they knew of him. They actually thought these fanatics refelected our loving God. These people are tools or satan because they drive people from how God really is, making them think God must be hateful, because they claim God is on their side.Of course girls will be turned away.This is so damaging. I remember watching a girl being forced to eat her own vomit because she couldnt finish her food. It was horroble to watch.Many of us wanted to fight back, and many of us did. But it never lasted for long. They always won. If you tried to stand up for another girl in the school, you would be given the same punishment as her, basically.
If you wrote things to your parents that the staff didn't want them to know about,they would sometimes blot it out with white out or black permanent marker if they thought it would be taken as truth. But If what was going on at the school was being expressed to the parents in letters, the staff would explain to the parents the girls were lying and just wanted to get away from their problems.They would leave it there in the letters to make you look bad. They told the parents that if they took their child out of the school before their year, things would never be successful between them and their child. It was their way of getting more money.
The staff always chose favorites with the girls. It was really wrong because there were some girls who were naturally more dull, or less pretty than other girls, or were less likely to suck up. These girls were ignored and were only given attention when the girls called their name, or had a question about a rule or something.But besides that, they never helped them with their problems, talked about working through problems that got them to VCA in the first place, or anything. There were certain girls they would pick to hug and spend time with. They would only hug certain girls, and others who desperately wanted attention might have tried to hug a staff member and been reprimanded for it in front of the pet girl. It was twisted. Of course that girl would get it in her head that she was special and would treat the other girls in a mean and rude manner. This was tolerated because she was a favorite.
If a girl was sick, oftentimes the staff would say she was faking it and make her carry around a trashcan to school and everything when she vomited. It was sad to watch because you would many times, see that a girl really WAS sick and had a fever, but they didn't care. The school system was a joke. The staff knew little about school, and how to teach. A lot of the time they didn't even know the workbooks, themseleves. It was just another situation where no one was qualfied. I was suicidal. I had depression. Was I given therapy? No. Was anyone? No. According to them, medicine was for weak people who didn't trust God. We were made fun of almost daily by the staff for taking meds for legitamate reasons. Our parents had sent us the meds and requested us be given them. This is the only reason they gave them to us. Even then,they would use it against you, as I said before, as a tool of manipulation. I failed school utterly at VCA. Some girls did good working for hours and hours in cramped cubicles with no breaks. I didn't. I left VCA so behind in my schooling due to their failure to teach me and help me with my subjects, I couldn't return to public schools. I had to be homeschooled until my graduation. They said school didn't matter, anyways, and that we should be focusing on out daily chores and bible, more than anything,anyways. I left VCA with more emotional problems than I had when I went in. Thankfully, I have been able to work through them. I care about these girls, and want them out of there for good.
If you are a parent and are thinking about sending your child to a place like this, please think twice about it-LOOK INTO THE PROGRAM. If a place tells you you can only visit your child at certain times, like, for an example, you can't see your child for 3 months straight, there is a problem. I want you to be able to contact your child whenever you feel the need, and not be manipulated by the people who run it. I want you to be able to write and recieve letters from your child without them being read. It's privacy anyone deserves. Think for yourself. I am sure it's hard to have a kid who doesn't connect with you, maybe doesn't listen to you, maybe is experiencing some really bad things at school, home, with a boyfriend, or maybe experienced sexual molestation. I spoke with many girls at VCA who had been sexually molested. You would be suprised at how many of their parents overlooked this and just sent them away thinking they were bad. Maybe you have no relationship with your kid, and you think sending them away to a psyco- cult commune where they are treated like animals and not even given the right POW'S have when they have their little fucking prayer mats to pray to Allah on 1000 times a day. At least they are given the right to think about which god they want to pray to. At least they are being respected enough to have a right to think. And these people are the types that jump in airplanes and blow up trade centers. It's only right. And look what is happening to our childen in our own country. These staff members are unqualified, there is no doctor on campus, there is nothing safe about the place. They will hire anyone as staff without background checks. These places are not accountable to ANYONE. You never know what they are able to do to your child.Think first.Don't be another rash parent and give your child to these dangerous people. A lot of parents meant well, and now their daughers are sluts and strippers on the streets and are dying from meth and heroin. These places take girls with potential and destroy them emotionally and spirtually. They don't help.If any of you have gone to VCA and need to talk or just have questions in general, feel free to IM me anytime. OrnaDuyessa.(AIM SN)
~Rae"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Johnny G

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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2006, 09:35:00 AM »
I think that hitting a personal bottom had a lot to do with ones reaction to the program.  

I figured I had screwed up pretty badly before I went in, so I was open to another path - Someone who didn't feel their life was a mess would fight it tooth and nail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »