Author Topic: Second Nature Wilderness Program  (Read 61160 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2006, 02:56:00 PM »
She wanted to get away from the drugs.  It had become a dangerous situation.  She wasn't addicted but she was certainly using.  She asked to go away.  She didn't think she could keep herself away from the crowd and disappearing her suited her more than trying to wean herself away or have us do it for her.  She had problems, still probably does, but she manages them better now.  I can't promise Second Nature is the whole reason she's better but it did give her a good foundation for change.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2006, 03:34:00 PM »
Thank you so much, DJ.

That first link (didn't have time for the second one) was to an excellent study comparing care choices for kids with various problems.

Some of the findings of the study demonstrate why I advise parents who live in communities without a lot of supports, whose kids "just won't go" to therapy, to go to therapy *themselves* to learn more productive strategies for parenting their kids, given their families' special needs.

Okay, what I just said is jargon heavy.  What I mean is that when the kid's in trouble the family's in trouble.  It doesn't matter whether the kid's trouble was caused by or was the cause of the family trouble.  The trouble is there.

Most RTCs claim to repair the family trouble, and most do appear to make an attempt to repair the family trouble.  RTCs do not do a good job of repairing family trouble because they separate the child from the family for months or years at a time.

Her doctor says my Katie is oppositional.  I'd say without the jargon that means she's stubborn, she's very intelligent about practical life matters, and she's very aware of some real shortcomings I have and that her dad has that sometimes makes her better judgment about her life problems, on the spot, better than what we might advise her to do.

I have a disability, her dad has to work long hours---it's the nature of his field, it's the nature of today's workplace.

This doesn't make our family bad or dysfunctional.  What it does do is make it so that it's better for Katie and our family to parent a bit differently from the best strategies for families that aren't us.

This is true whenever the family and the kid(s) "have issues."

It's possible to parent effectively through those issues.  I know it because we do it.

Therapy, with a family therapist, for the parents, can be effective even if the kid "just won't go" because the parents can tell the therapist what they see in the kid and what's going on in the home and the therapist can help the parents learn individualized techniques that work with their particular kid.

We negotiate, we help Katie realize how a bad behavior inherently hurts her and will hurt her in her life if she does it when she grows up.  She has a special kind of smarts for coping with life.  We play to that strength of hers and use it to appeal to her rational self interest.  

As a ten year old, she doesn't have the life experience to see on her own how a bad habit will hurt her with friends and authorities, now and when she's grown.  Her strength is that when we explain how the behavior is going to come back to bite her in the ass, she understands quite clearly---she just didn't have the experience to think of it herself.  We don't have to hit her opposition head on.  We appeal to her self interest, help her figure out what's in her own best interests, and work with her to figure out how we can help her out.

Despite her stubborness, Katie has a special strength in liking people, including parents and teachers, and being very eager to please.  When we and the school let her know small, specific positives we want to see, and make a habit of praising her when we see them and give her some appreciation for her efforts, we see a lot more of those efforts.  No surprise there.

We listen to her when she tries to tell us why she thinks what we or the school are telling her to do will cause her trouble.  When she's right, or as likely to be right as we are, we let her try it her way.  This means she's more likely to trust us when we insist.

We pick our battles.  For things that don't really matter, we give her a lot of freedom.  For things that really matter, we enforce limits no matter how much she wants to resist them.  Because she knows we'll be reasonable, she gives in easier and doesn't carry resentment around when we insist on a limit.

Some of these strategies wouldn't work too well with a kid with different strengths and weaknesses.  Some kids would get an inch and take a mile.  Katie sometimes tries to, but we have our ways of dealing with it.  Ways that work with her, but wouldn't with every kid.

We're far from perfect as parents.  She's not a perfect little angel of a kid who can do no wrong.  But our parenting strategies are tailored to her strengths, weaknesses, and needs.

That's hard to do.  We could figure it out without family therapy, so far, because Katie's a lot like I was, a lot like my oldest sister was, a lot like my husband was, a lot like his mother was.  Her school is supportive.  I'm able to stay home and spend more time working with her.

If it quits being enough, we'll use family therapy.  If, when she's a teen, we have to do that and she just balks at going, we'll go on our own.

It's like marriage counseling.  A lot of times you can save a marriage even if your spouse won't go by you going by yourself and learning better ways to handle your problems.

The studies emphasize how helpful intervention in the home is.  Well, even if your community has limited supports, you can get that much intervention by finding and going to a good therapist, yourself.  Family therapy just for you is an advanced course in Mom Fu or Dad Fu

There is no substitute for Mom Fu or Dad Fu in helping your kid.

Mom and Dad have the power to change the home environment the kid lives in.  Change the home environment to play to the kid's strengths, change the home environment to set the kid up to succeed, change the home environment to pick your battles carefully, and you change the kid.

Set the example of going to therapy yourself, and creating a home environment that sets the kid up to succeed, and you increase the likelihood of the kid going to therapy.  

Of course the kid is going to resist going to therapy if the impression he gets of it is that you're sending him to fix him and you're going along to supervise and make sure you can help manipulate him into getting fixed.  No matter what their problems are, who the hell wouldn't resist that?

If the kid gets the clear impression that you're going to therapy to fix yourselves, and part of that is fixing your own screwups that drive your kid crazy (as well as learning better Mom Fu), then if you let the kid know that sure you'd like him/her to do better, but that certainly *you* could do better at improving yourselves if the therapist had the kid's point of view, you have the potential of actually getting your kid through the door.

If the therapist is supportive, "Hey, Johnny, I suppose you know that your parents have been coming because some problems you were having helped them notice that they were having a lot of problems, too.  Thanks for coming and helping out at making you guys' home work better.  First, to help me know how to focus the session, what do you want out of today?  Are you here mostly to give input to help me help your parents, or are you looking for some help with something that's going on for you?  Okay, let's go with that."

If a resistant kid or spouse shows up, you let them define why they're there that day and you focus on that.  You can get in through the back door, but just a little, with having one say to another, "When you do [thing], I feel [thing], which makes it hard for me to do [thing]."

Then there's always the "Okay, so we all agree that [person] needs to get better about doing [thing].  Is there any possibility you could help [person] out with their changes by trying to do/not do [other thing] a bit more?"

If you can get somebody in the door, you can appeal to their self-interest to change some of their behaviors, even if just to support their parents in stopping doing something the kid doesn't like.

Example:  The kid doesn't like it that the parents are always freaked out.  The parents are freaked out because the kid is coming home drunk and high.  Small steps.  One of the parents' worries is the kid driving drunk.  Can the kid get a ride, or call for a ride, or even call for a cab, and just get the car the next day--rather than driving drunk/high?  If the kid does this, will the parents make [defined] progress at not getting freaked out?

It doesn't stop the drug abuse *yet*.  One thing it does do is stop *one* of the major risks freaking the parents out.  The biggest thing it does is get the therapist's foot in the door by getting the kid to accept the idea of changing a behavior.  It ties the change to a change in the parents' behavior that the kid wants---not a bribe, just that the kid's change will reduce stress on the parents and help them do better at fixing *their* problems.

Another example:  Promiscuous sex without condoms.  Are there some condoms that are less objectionable than others?  Can the kid not afford them?  Is the kid forgetting to carry them?  Can the kid start carrying them and using them?  If the kid doesn't know if some condoms are less objectionable, can the kid try out various ones and find out?  It's a *small* step.  It doesn't get to acceptable behavior in one sudden leap.  It's an improvement.

The small step isn't a stopping point.  It gets the foot in the door.

Sometimes parents in troubled families make the mistake of expecting all or nothing, or expecting too much at once and giving themselves a figleaf excuse that they don't want all or nothing, or assuming that accepting a small step as a beginning, and facilitating that small step, amounts to condoning portions of the whole set of behavior that are still unacceptable.

Sometimes they think letting up on the pressure on the kid in return for a small step takes away a disproportionate amount of their bargaining position.

Sometimes they can't see the value of a small step in reducing one of the worse risks of a behavior, and the long term value of working a small step at a time in the home instead of all at once in an RTC.

The *habit* of using condoms, or calling for a ride instead of driving impaired, is a durable habit that reduces risk instead of being likely to relapse.  Each small step is a durable habit.

Once the kid has some improved impulse control, and has seen improvements in his home life, he's more likely to agree to a major change like sobriety or a severely reduced number of sex partners.  Most sexually active people are not going to stop sex completely---it's a powerful, natural, human drive--just because someone else wants them to.  Sexual abstinence requires a deeply held personal belief.  Trying to dictate someone's personal beliefs doesn't work.  However, if the beliefs are there, improved impulse control developed from the small steps might help prior beliefs to re-emerge into abstinence.

Parents can reap huge, long-term improvements in a kid's behavior by going to therapy to fix themselves, learn new parenting techniques, and target their parenting strategies to their kids' strengths.

Sending your kid to an RTC is like buying shoddy, flashy, convenience goods for a small fortune.  It looks flashy, it seems like a one-shot fix for all your problems, but its quality sucks and costs way too much money.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2006, 03:53:00 PM »
I don't know a single person that did not try family therapy and individual therapy before resorting to a Wilderness Program or a TBS.  Usually it is a prerequisite of the quality programs.  We got a referral from a psychiatrist and a psychologist after months, if not years, of therapy.  It was a last resort for us.  You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.  Nobody, not even rich people, enjoy spending that kind of money on something that isn't guaranteed.  I hope Katie stays away from abusive boys/men, drugs, and unhealthy sexual practices because when that shit starts to fly all a good parent wants to do is hide them from the danger.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2006, 03:59:00 PM »
Gosh, that was a lot more than I meant to say at once.

DJ, you appear to be a highly competent professional with your head screwed on straight.

If there's not much wrong with your kid and she just wants to get away from bad friends for awhile, there are all kinds of places to go that aren't geared towards the "troubled."

If she wanted to get away in the great outdoors, and you wanted the testing, it probably would have been a better choice to get a referral from your insurance company to professionals to get it.  The closest professionals they could find might be a bit of a drive away, but they'd be qualified and have no conflict of interest.

Then, after the testing--we had it done for our daughter, it's not that big a deal---there are all sorts of outdoorsy vacation packages, some with tour groups, that provide the same thing for less money.  They also do it without adding in therapies that may do more harm than good.

Here's a quick example which gives a broad range of experience, with a tour group, that I found in just one quick Google.

http://www.footloose.com/tours/fbw.html

I'm sure tour group vacations have a wide variety of packages and prices.

Second Nature does tout itself as a treatment center for a whole laundry list of mental health problems:

http://www.snwp.com/pages.asp?id=10

DJ's criticisms are therefore right on point.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2006, 04:01:00 PM »
My kid loved the solos, too. Everything in the program was designed to focus these kids on what was going on inside. Outside distractions were removed. It is not the kind of program that can be replicated by your community therapist.  All of the at-home therapy has already failed if a family is considering a wilderness program.  2N is the best of the best- and there are many fine wilderness programs out there.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2006, 04:03:00 PM »
Julie- you are so off base it is laughable. Go back to your book.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2006, 04:12:00 PM »
My kid had/has problems.  Maybe not bad enough to live at a RTC for years but she was helped concerning her drug use and her unhealthy choices in just about every arena of her life.  She didn't want to go back to an "Outward Bound" program because she reports that her first drug use occurred there!  I don't and she doesn't regret the decision to go to Second Nature.  By the way, there are no referral fees and our insurance company paid for a big portion of the cost.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2006, 04:16:00 PM »
Quote

Then, after the testing--we had it done for our daughter, it's not that big a deal---there are all sorts of outdoorsy vacation packages, some with tour groups, that provide the same thing for less money.  


You get what you pay for.  I'd rather have my kid with Psychologists and MSW's and pay more than risk the possible deviant behaviour of low-paid chaperones.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2006, 04:26:00 PM »
Oh, and by the way, Julie, those other programs you refer to ask questions like:

1) Has your child ever been in therapy?
2) Has your child ever been suspended or expelled from school?
3) Does your child have a diagnosis from a licensed therapist?
4) Please sign this release form so that we may get information from his/her therapist pertinent to your child's ability to travel with us.

The bottom line is if the child has been suspended, has an eating disorder, ever was a cutter (even a recovered cutter) or has a drug abuse history THEY WILL NOT accept them.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2006, 04:37:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.


Controls? I'm guessing it's about the same as AA's own stated 5% "success rate", which is just slightly lower than controls who seek and receive no formal intervention whatever.

so long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2006, 04:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-22 09:52:00, odie wrote:


Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.

So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work.


Growing up helps. Learning from mistakes helps. Having real, practical opportunities to attain success at love, self sufficiency, personally rewarding career or vocation. Knowing that you can acquire this kind of success and how to do it. Those things help trememdously.

Stealing your kid's thunder by strong arming into accepting your ideas about acceptable risk and what is and is not a worthy objective or friend can be most unhelpful. On the other hand, if 2N habitually convinces parents to quit fuckin' with their nearly grown kids, that's a service in itself. But I rather suspect they don't. They probably work pretty hard at getting the parents on game w/ TBS or some other very expensive long term plan.

Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2006, 04:56:00 PM »
Quote
Stealing your kid's thunder by strong arming into accepting your ideas about acceptable risk and what is and is not a worthy objective or friend can be most unhelpful."


Eudora, please. STD's, unwanted pregnancy and death at the hands of drug dealers are not acceptable.  Kids aren't sent off to WT because of their clothing choices.  A good parent better pick their batles and strong arm their ideas regarding deadly behaviours.  And, if that doesn't work, time away from it all and breaking the cycle may be the answer.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-03-22 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

 A professional does not hurl insults to people in pain.


Why would your kid's therapist be in pain?

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.



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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2006, 05:04:00 PM »
DJ is not my kid's therapist but I do believe he is in pain.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2006, 05:06:00 PM »
Quote
You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.


I've only gone by what you said.  I haven't assumed anything really.  I've read what you wrote and commented on what you said.

In any case, I think you are quick to insult others due to what you perceive to be an attack on you when people ask questions and ask you to justify what you say with facts.  It's a touchy subject and people don't like to go into details.  I understand that to an extent.

I have said it before that I'm glad that your kid is doing better.  Who could be upset with a happy, functioning child?

What I object to is that places that use these types of "programs" don't tell the truth about their approach to "treatment."  Now. I'm not saying that your program has done this - I wouldn't know.  What I do know, however, is that they advertise that they can treat various psychological/social disorders.  They advertise that they are successful, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this claim.

I can say this universally about all of these programs simply because I stay current on the research being conducted and there is not a single, solitary clinical trial for "wilderness programs" that indicates that they can successfully treat anything whatsoever. Current research indicates that these programs are at best ineffective and at worst damaging.  

Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible.  This is a general rule of the discipline.  Sending a child to one of these programs against their will is counterintuitive the "least restrictive" philosophy.  

Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.

My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.

I'm not saying that there aren't some people in this industry who have good intentions and are trying to help kids.  

What I'm saying is that these places, based on the least restrictive care model, are accepting children whose placement there is unwarranted (many) or even dangerous (very few).  I'm saying that they're in business to sell a product - like every business sells a product to make profit - and the product they're selling isn't therapy for the kids, it's hope for the parents and it's wrong.
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