Author Topic: Second Nature Wilderness Program  (Read 60497 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #345 on: January 10, 2008, 11:14:12 AM »
you're in trouble.. that happened before the reformat, right?
It prob won't come up, unless you're a computer genius. Seriously, my friend's a web designer, he couldn't get stuff i accedentally deleted, 2 minutes after i lost the info
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Offline Anonymous

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hi Psy....yup
« Reply #346 on: January 10, 2008, 09:39:59 PM »
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Offline TheWho

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Re: hi Psy....yup
« Reply #347 on: January 10, 2008, 11:07:35 PM »
"Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII:" year 1613.... by John Donne....

â€
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Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #348 on: January 10, 2008, 11:42:53 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
I don't get why you guys get so hung up on where certain founders or staff worked prior.  Many of us have worked for organizations that aren't the best.  That does not mean we totally buy-in to the teachings of the prior employers.  You can't judge the Second Nature founders simply based on where they started.  Many people LEAVE programs because they want to change things and don't buy-in to the teachings.



Okay Mr. Born Again.....have you ever publically acknowledged that you once worked in a corrupt school? Have you told the kids, the parents,  or alumni?????

You're probably shoving the 'honesty lesson' down your students throats 24/7 but the ironic part is that you don't know jackshit about honesty.
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Offline psy

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Re: hi Psy....yup
« Reply #349 on: January 11, 2008, 02:41:28 AM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
"Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII:" year 1613.... by John Donne....

â€
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #350 on: January 18, 2008, 01:10:23 AM »
as a program attendee of many programs i would have to say second nature is a great program IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY.  They do not abuse their kids because they are smarter than that in that the longevity of their program relies on not abusing kids.  And dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about because I went there and am brainwashed.  That is not true.  I think there are some great things about second nature and some bad things too.  The staff are mostly hippies that actually want to help and they freeze in the winter and bake in the summer.  I got to talk about things in a safe environment.  I was given choices which I cannot say for other programs.  Do good kids get sent to the wrong programs, absolutely.  Does second nature help in the long run?  only if you have the money to send your kid to an after care where they can be kept from temptation. 

a lot of time its the parents that create an unstable home
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #351 on: January 18, 2008, 09:07:32 AM »
Quote from: "slowmotion"
as a program attendee of many programs i would have to say second nature is a great program IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY.  They do not abuse their kids because they are smarter than that in that the longevity of their program relies on not abusing kids.  And dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about because I went there and am brainwashed.  That is not true.  I think there are some great things about second nature and some bad things too.  The staff are mostly hippies that actually want to help and they freeze in the winter and bake in the summer.  I got to talk about things in a safe environment.  I was given choices which I cannot say for other programs.  Do good kids get sent to the wrong programs, absolutely.  Does second nature help in the long run?  only if you have the money to send your kid to an after care where they can be kept from temptation. 

a lot of time its the parents that create an unstable home

Slowmotion, thank you for the honest account.  The majority of the staff members are really great people who want to help kids, but there is always that one person who gets into a power trip which reflects badly on staff as a whole. 

I have spoken to many kids who are struggling due to instability at home.  Just getting them free from those bad dynamics can be enough to get them on the right track again.  The follow-up is critical.... if the child returns to the same environment (if that was a contributing cause) then the effort could prove fruitless, whether it be old friends, old habits, family dynamics or child’s medical needs/medication... as you mentioned the after care plan is crucial to the success of the program.



...
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #352 on: January 18, 2008, 01:57:07 PM »
after care is a scam in itself. the reason second nature works is because it is an unsustainable short term process.  are there good schools "after cares" and programs? i mean thats debateable.  when you talk about non abusive transition living your talking the most expensive places.  the staff at second nature has freedom of choice meaning that the owners the directors dont check up on staff because they dont like to go get dirty. 
If your parents are the ones abusing you physically is talking about it in the desert or in the woods a terrible thing. Is talking about abuse hurtful no, is breaking an individual hurtful, yes
im not defending second nature by any means.  I think this whole wilderness program/ after care is a complex subject.

if the parents dont change nothing for the kids will change.

the only wilderness program i endorse is Monarch Family Healing. Why do I endorse them?
Because the parents can come at any time. The kids are allowed in the city and asked not to run away.  The parents have therapy.  Thats right the parents are involved in 1/3 the therapy and the kids spend a week with them every three weeks.

They speak out against the bs in the ed consoltunt game, they are part of the congressional investigation on ethics.  They helped to start the investigation. They almost went out of business and are still struggling because they are standing up for what is ethical. If you speak out against the people who refer kids how do you get kids? From parents who have their kids back home, not as perfect angles, more as a family that comunicates better.  They deal with kids who recover from being in programs.

They refuse the use of pain restraints.  Their theory is yeah kids will be kids when they go back home, they ll drink theyll "relapse" thats what kids do. there number one goal is to get kids home because they believe programs cause abandonment and attachment issues.  there are no "ear shot" rules, no nark people out. they just took their kids to help in New Orleans. 

Wilderness can work to help people get in touch, it can help to heal people.  Like anything put in the wrong hands it can be destructive.

Kids are brainwashed, brainwashed by the media, their peers who copy the media.  I could go on and on and ive totally digressed off the second nature subject.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #353 on: January 18, 2008, 02:44:59 PM »
Quote from: "slowmotion"
after care is a scam in itself. the reason second nature works is because it is an unsustainable short term process.  are there good schools "after cares" and programs? i mean thats debateable.  when you talk about non abusive transition living your talking the most expensive places.  the staff at second nature has freedom of choice meaning that the owners the directors dont check up on staff because they dont like to go get dirty. 
If your parents are the ones abusing you physically is talking about it in the desert or in the woods a terrible thing. Is talking about abuse hurtful no, is breaking an individual hurtful, yes
im not defending second nature by any means.  I think this whole wilderness program/ after care is a complex subject.

I guess I viewed aftercare as a little more general i.e. seeing a therapist locally once the child gets home.  Moving on to a TBS I agree is debatable and depends on the individual child.  There are harsh and abusive programs out there and these are the ones we need to keep kids away from.


Quote
if the parents dont change nothing for the kids will change.

Especially if the home environment is part of the problem, which in some cases it is.  The better programs will address the family situation and ask them to work on the issues which come up during the child’s stay or deemed to be a problem so the child does go back to the same environment.

Quote
the only wilderness program i endorse is Monarch Family Healing. Why do I endorse them?
Because the parents can come at any time. The kids are allowed in the city and asked not to run away.  The parents have therapy.  Thats right the parents are involved in 1/3 the therapy and the kids spend a week with them every three weeks.  They speak out against the bs in the ed consoltunt game, they are part of the congressional investigation on ethics.  They helped to start the investigation. They almost went out of business and are still struggling because they are standing up for what is ethical. If you speak out against the people who refer kids how do you get kids? From parents who have their kids back home, not as perfect angles, more as a family that comunicates better.  They deal with kids who recover from being in programs.

They refuse the use of pain restraints.  Their theory is yeah kids will be kids when they go back home, they ll drink theyll "relapse" thats what kids do. there number one goal is to get kids home because they believe programs cause abandonment and attachment issues.  there are no "ear shot" rules, no nark people out. they just took their kids to help in New Orleans. 

That is good to hear….I found “SUWS of the Carolinas” to be beneficial and not abusive towards the children (some kids found it to be harsh)  They don’t involve the parents as much as Monarch Family Healing, but they are involved and work towards getting families closer together.  They don’t use restraints that I am aware of and utilize therapists which are paid separately (independent) from the program, which I liked.
They never talked about the kids going back to drinking and smoking as normal… but for me this wasn’t a big issue anyway, but it is good to be realistic.



Quote
Wilderness can work to help people get in touch, it can help to heal people.  Like anything put in the wrong hands it can be destructive.

Kids are brainwashed, brainwashed by the media, their peers who copy the media.  I could go on and on and ive totally digressed off the second nature subject.

Good post, slowmotion  , thanks




...
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #354 on: September 16, 2009, 08:45:21 AM »
Quote from: "Lain the Odd"
That's the basic idea with Second Nature.

My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many. My crime consisted entirely of.. being sad. I still love the idea that taking a depressed transsexual and shipping her to Mormon Utah, minus what few comforts did exist and plus sadistic staff and insane 'therapeutic' ideas were going to make it better.

As noted, the therapist (who was everyone there's therapist) was around at most once a week. This in contrast to the therapist I had at home, who I saw once a week, liked, and respected, and if something came up I needed to talk about he could usually be on call within a few hours at most.

I won't get into the gory details, but staff were every bit as sadistic as any other program, only they really weren't allowed to beat people up randomly - bad PR, I guess. They were perfectly happy with mind games, and those were about the extent of the "therapy".

Now, they get paid for processed meat turned over to more 'long-term' programs, so throughout this they were buttering up my parents to make me such afterwards, of course. They did, the 2 other places and 2 stints at Second Nature gave me PTSD, and that's a story for you.

Conclusion: While I don't doubt the value of doing so, I don't even need to trash Second Nature with its obvious faults and false advertising (which, I will confirm, is false as they come). My argument is a bit simpler: It DOESN'T WORK.

sad
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #355 on: October 02, 2009, 01:11:08 PM »
:bump:
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #356 on: October 03, 2009, 02:31:33 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
:bump:
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Offline honestly

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #357 on: October 07, 2011, 11:34:39 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Same here, I went there in the summer of 2000, for basically the same reason. I don't feel I needed to be there and did not have a positive experience. I hated it there, I was miserable.

I would call it borderline abusive. We had to read our "impact letters" out loud to the group, which I thought was fucked up and invasive, as I don't feel my issues were any of their business.

and while they never denied me food, they did use food as a punishment, they made me only eat beans and rice for a week straight (for me it was rice, only, because I hate beans) which pissed me off. They also made me hike all day and when I freaked out because I was feeling sick, they told me to shut up and that I was on a pity party.

then 1 staff told me, "if you talk 1 more time you're on silence."
i nodded and said, "ok."
"you're on silence." then she also put me on Separates, so I spent the next week on Separates and Silence, meaning I couldn't talk to anyone and I couldn't be part of the group in any way. even though I didn't do anything but complain about the hike. ugh. I'd forgotten about all this till now actually. but now that I'm older, I'd love to have a few words with that loser haha.

Oh, and the program lied. On their website/brochure at the time, they claimed the group goes back to base camp twice a week to shower and eat hot meals, etc. That's a lie, never once did we go back to base camp during my entire 9 week stay there.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #358 on: October 08, 2011, 01:50:11 AM »
Quote from: "honestly"
Quote from: "Guest"
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Same here, I went there in the summer of 2000, for basically the same reason. I don't feel I needed to be there and did not have a positive experience. I hated it there, I was miserable.

I would call it borderline abusive. We had to read our "impact letters" out loud to the group, which I thought was fucked up and invasive, as I don't feel my issues were any of their business.

and while they never denied me food, they did use food as a punishment, they made me only eat beans and rice for a week straight (for me it was rice, only, because I hate beans) which pissed me off. They also made me hike all day and when I freaked out because I was feeling sick, they told me to shut up and that I was on a pity party.

then 1 staff told me, "if you talk 1 more time you're on silence."
i nodded and said, "ok."
"you're on silence." then she also put me on Separates, so I spent the next week on Separates and Silence, meaning I couldn't talk to anyone and I couldn't be part of the group in any way. even though I didn't do anything but complain about the hike. ugh. I'd forgotten about all this till now actually. but now that I'm older, I'd love to have a few words with that loser haha.

Oh, and the program lied. On their website/brochure at the time, they claimed the group goes back to base camp twice a week to shower and eat hot meals, etc. That's a lie, never once did we go back to base camp during my entire 9 week stay there.

Nice to see that programmie techniques don't really vary from program to program.

Silence.. I remember that being called noncom in 3 springs. On bans in CEDU programs.

Seperates.. hmm.. group ignore...


Won't go on, this thread is more for you to say your piece, but just know you are a small part of a giant fucked up shit taco.

FEELS GOOD MAN!

Or does it?
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Offline BurningMoose

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Re: Second Nature Wilderness Program
« Reply #359 on: March 04, 2012, 08:25:51 PM »
The first issue here is that people are grouping together all of the programs under the Second Nature name, which is going to lead to problems regardless of intention--they operate an adult program, several programs for adolescents, and a program for younger kids.  

That may not sound like a big deal, but I worked in the industry after being a client at one of their programs and trust me--the differences are huge between adult, adolescent, and youth programs.  Different laws apply, different treatments are emphasized, and each employs a (similar and still) different structure.  For example, most adolescent and especially the youth programs are not meant to "fix" or "cure" the student; they are mainly used for stabilization, assessment, and are (way more often than not) just prerequisites for getting the student into a good boarding school, as many require a certain level of behavioral decency that these students need help reaching.

I was a client at Second Nature Entrada, which is home to several adolescent groups and a couple adult groups as well.  There are definitely things about it that I disagreed with, and also had an overwhelmingly positive experience.  I think that most therapists--psychiatrists in particular--are full of crap, and have been very open with that opinion since day one.  That being said, I would take a bullet for my therapist at 2NE.  That man, and the field staff out there, helped save me from myself in ways that those who haven't experienced this kind of thing cannot begin to imagine.

It's very obvious, reading over this forum, that most of the posters have little to no idea what they're talking about, either in regard to the positive or more questionable aspects of wilderness therapy programs--and yes, both are very real.  Example: one poster said that--and I quote--"nobody who went to a wilderness program would ever claim that it helped them."  Well, here I am.  It saved my life, and I know that is not true for everyone.

What program "works" for everyone, in any realm of life?  Does school guarantee everyone a job?  Does everyone like their classes?  Their professors?  Does everyone learn the same things from their jobs?  Of course not.  

After graduating, I went to a transitional program in Costa Rica that was blatantly fraudulent, and which I (and everyone else, really) considered to be psychologically abusive in certain ways.  That program has been shut down.

I stayed there only long enough to realize what was going on, and then left and went to a different program that was not remarkable in either direction.

I now work in the industry, as a Field Instructor, and can tell you that if a program even had the potential for being abusive, it wouldn't exist for very long.  The rules and policies are so incredibly specific, and so much paperwork needs to be filed for everything from a student complaining of a headache to what exactly happened that led to a student's being restrained, that there is no room for error.  One kid, who I saw tremendous growth in and will probably always be unstable, called after he graduated and accused a certain staff member of sitting on him, pouring water on his head, and yelling in his ear, "THIS IS HOW ANNOYING YOU ARE!"

He was fired immediately, even though this probably never actually happened.  THAT is how careful these programs are to make sure that no such abuse can occur.  Staff are never--EVER--alone with a student.  All it takes is one vindictive kid deciding he doesn't like you and saying you said mean things to him to get you canned unless someone else was there who can vouch that it didn't occur.

I will answer any questions completely and to the best of my ability, as I believe I have certain insights that most students of these programs don't (that is, seeing both sides of the industry).
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