Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Troubled Teen Industry
Second Nature Wilderness Program
psy:
--- Quote from: ""TheWho"" ---So it seems we may be at an impasse. Clinical studies are not automatically performed in all areas. They are great to have but the lack of them doesn’t dictate a conclusion either way. To say a program is ineffective because of a lack of studies ludicrous.
--- End quote ---
But to advertise a program as effective when it has not been proven to be is fraudulent. So, you say: well, that would mean all new organizations of any kind are fraudulent. No. Legitimate treatment of mental problems normally requires licenses to practice. Licenses, both give the practitioners something major to lose if they screw up, and ensure that they have the education not to, for example, dismiss threats of suicide as "manipulation".
--- Quote ---If the parents and kids that pass through the programs find them to be effective then they are!
--- End quote ---
So what you're essentially saying is "trust the marketing"... Unless you're suggesting we listen to the experiences of a single parent OR interview a large sample of people who have been in (not just graduated from) the program. Oh... but that would be somewhat of study, now wouldn't it.
--- Quote ---The parents and kids that find them to be ineffective are also correct (wilderness doesn’t work for everyone).
--- End quote ---
Do you really expect an educational consultant to say something like that? Do you expect a program to refuse a student... ever? Ever tried applying a fake kid to a program for absurd reasons just to see the response? I'd do it if I had the phone voice. Besides... Many programs even require wilderness before going into the main program and use them as threats to gain compliance.
--- Quote ---As far as abuse goes, we haven’t seen any evidence. Lain gave us a story about a person who had to walk back down the trail and place a sausage into the food bag, which didn’t seem to be anything to call the police on.
--- End quote ---
Regardless of what you deem "abuse", these programs rely on creating enough "discomfort" to gain compliance. Many advertise to "break em down" to "build em up". It's a euphemism for attack on the core identity. The military doesn't do this at all in the literal sense that program do, and even if they did, it's voluntary, people don't need to have their wills broken (since they want to be there) and people know what their getting into. There is informed consent. There isn't in a program.
--- Quote ---So to recap: The effectiveness of Second Nature wilderness varies based on the individual from extremely effective to not effective at all, with no evidence of abuse (or negative effects).
--- End quote ---
Well. Consider, also, that an effective program of thought reform wouldn't have many people claiming abuse or mistreatment. There are almost too many reasons to count. Here's one:
- Usually, if they fuck up after program, they blame it on themselves. Since whatever they experienced is the only concept of "therapy" they have ever experienced, since they were told it was therapy (regardless of whether it was or not), they're unlikely to view what they experienced as abuse if it was. If you want to find out about abuse in a program, ask the kids how they were helped, in explicit detail. Ask them how they found their real selves. Ask them how resistant they were at the beginning of program, and how hard the staff had to push them to "follow the program". Ask them about consequences, etc.
What programs do, in my experience, with just about anybody i've ever talked to who was in a program, is instill a new belief system where the student is to blame for anything that ever happened to them, or will happen to them. When they predictibly "relapse" because they believe they are powerless, need program, and have no self confidence at all, they believe it's because they "didn't follow their program". Some even ask to go back... Some become afraid to leave. Program sure as hell doesn't mind. They like completely debilitated students (as long as their parents still have money). There's no warranty here and by coaching the parents and shoving them through brainwashing (yes brainwashing) seminars, they can become convinced that the program is the only possible salvation for their child. Some programs use this to their advantage, offering free tuition for referrals, turning the parents into deployable agents of the cult (free marketing / evangelism).
No, parents aren't always stupid... They're often uneducated. If I had been in my parent's shoes, I probably wouldnt' have believed my complaints when I was in program. That doesn't necessarily make it right at all, they should have investigated... but programs prepare for that as well and staff are often trained in how to deal with doubting parents. Parents are often scolded when they question the program, told that to trust the professionals and that they don't know what their talking about. They're told that their kid is progressing, just needs more time in program (could you possibly afford a few more months. he really needs it). They use fear too, often claiming "this is his last chance at a life. if he leaves now, he'll die / whatever is needed to scare the parents...) They told this to my parents. They make a living off doing this shit, you don't think they're good at it. These people know how to create emotional responses (especially fear) in order to get what they want.
you can go bla bla bla "you don't know it's a bad program" and I respond that I don't have to know. The industry is unregulated, and there are enough programs confirmed to be bad out there to know that taking a chance at all is a real bad idea, even when "all" other options have been exhausted. If I was an evil bastard and I wanted to make a lot of money, if I was a sociopath like Sue Scheff says I am, I would probably start a program and do exactly what i've just talked above with very, very little fear of repercussions.
What's the statute of limitations on intentional / negligent infliction of emotional distress... Does a debilitated program dropout who has no parental support and struggling to survive think about where to get food next, or how to get a 600$ retainer (not even mentioning the legal fees) for a lawer who, in all probability, will never take the case. That's even assuming they were resistant enough to not accept the program (or snap out of the thought reform early). That's assuming their parents even believe them... and in most case programs know that parents will never believe a kid complaining about most of the things they do. That's assuming the parents even talk to the kids. Often, programs convince the parents not to talk to them unless it's through the program (even after program). They tell them that the kids will say anything to get back in the house and start manipulating / using them again. They tell the parents that they need a mediator to spot lies/manipulations. Considering the parents are on the program's side, who do you think they would testify for. Considering the trumped up confessions required to be written in program, you don't think the program would submit that as evidence. You think a cheap-as lawyer (compared to a program's unlimited funding) could really explain the psychology of thought reform to an average American Jury? I know of one who could, and he ain't cheap.
I know all too well how it's possible to run an abusive school that systematically destroys, debilitates, robs, and abandons students without getting caught.
Answer this question: IF a kid is abused in program, and the conditions I am speaking of exist, HOW could he or she do anything about it at all? And that's even assuming the unlikely possibility that they understand even a fraction of what happened to them. Go read one of the books advertised here, (start with cults in our midst, perhaps), and maybe, if you're actually a human being, you'll begin to understand the immense harm you are doing here by trying to convince parents that any program is a good one.
Ursus:
Thank you, psy, for that kick-ass post! :nworthy:
Anonymous:
yup agree.
Thank you PSY for formulating the message and eloquently writing what many of us feel. There are many pieces of this puzzle: families, the parents, but most importantly, the child who needs a voice.
(a parent who wised up to TBS scams)
Anonymous:
Well said, Psy!
If I may, I'd like to address an issue that I believe is of primary concern but not often acknowledged.
Many of the people who run these programs and SELL THEM meet the definition of a malignant narcissist.
These types of disordered personalities are drawn to the TEEN HURT industry like a moth to the flame.
Abusing children is second nature to them. The power they hold over these vulnerable, completely defenseless children is intoxicating.
Ursus:
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---Abusing children is to them.
--- End quote ---
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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