Second Nature Wilderness Program

[Anonymous]

My kid thinks all teens would benefit from Second Nature.

 :eek:

[Troll Control]

I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.

Mental health professionals disagree.  All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual.  The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.

The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%.  So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-22 09:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"But they will take a kid who cuts himself. How do you think wilderness will help that? I am curious where your child went after the wilderness."

My kid came home, finished school and is now in college.  I would assume that intensive therapy in the woods where there are no distractions might help a kid determine why he/she is a cutter. My kid was a cutter.  The therapy helped.

[Anonymous]

The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%.  So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
"

I'm happy my kid was helped.  I wish the numbers of kids helped was higher.  I was against the program and am now thankful we sent her there.  We could have ended up in a worse program that may have done more harm than good.  All I'm trying to say is that SNWP is a good place, it's not abusive and some kids get the help they need.  Some kids are never going to respond to any therapy at all.  When you have tried everything else available, 25% looks very promising.

[odie]

On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

 I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.

Mental health professionals disagree.  All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual.  The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.



The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%.  So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
"

Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.
So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work.

"When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God

[Anonymous]

One thing I do take issue with is the statement that "some kids can't be reached."  It is true, but it's unfair to say that because WILDERNESS didn't help them that they're unreachable.
"

Sorry Eudora, I missed this post.  I just find that lots of the people on this forum criticize what didn't help for them and never talk about anything that did in fact help.  There are people that will not be happy; not with therapy, not with drug therapy and certainly not with doing absolutely nothing but whining about how miserably they were treated.  Parents that love their children (and I do realize that some don't) just want their kids to be happy in their own skin.  Parents make mistakes. We could have made a huge one by sending our child to a "boot camp" instead of Second Nature.  I agree, we were among the lucky few.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-03-22 09:52:00, odie wrote:

"

On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:


"

 I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.

Mental health professionals disagree.  All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual.  The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.





The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%.  So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.

"

Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.

So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work.

"When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God

"

The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy.

If this level of care is not enough for your kid, then WT or TBS DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP and your kid requires hospitalization.

[odie]

DJ can you point me to the statistics that support your theory?

I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

[Anonymous]

If this level of care is not enough for your kid, then WT or TBS DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP and your kid requires hospitalization."

That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.  Who made you the authority and why haven't you published a study if you are so sure?  Some communities don't have good therapists.  There are good therapists at Second Nature.  We may have condiered a TBS after Second Nature that was recommended to us but couldn't afford it.  Fortunately, enough time in the Wilderness got our kid on the right track.  DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP is erroneous.  What happened to the 25% it helps that you talked about earlier?

[Anonymous]

[/quote]



The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy."
[/quote]

By the way, what do you think they do at Second Nature?  Your post sounds like it's right off of the SNWP website.  In an office, or in the woods, it's still therapy with LOTS of family therapy going on simutaneously.  Do your research instead of pulling this stuff out of your butt.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-03-22 10:26:00, odie wrote:

"DJ can you point me to the statistics that support your theory?

I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

"

There were a bunch of studies completed by the Surgeon General's office.  This is their conclusion.  I'm not sure if they posted the raw statistics or not, but I'm sure that's in the supporting documentation.

You can start here:

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/m ... /sec7.html

I think Bazelon also has some good reports.  A starting point:

http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/ ... s/rtcs.htm

Check out these sources and I'll look up a few more for you.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-03-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy."

"By the way, what do you think they do at Second Nature?  Your post sounds like it's right off of the SNWP website.  In an office, or in the woods, it's still therapy with LOTS of family therapy going on simutaneously.  Do your research instead of pulling this stuff out of your butt."

This is actually you "pulling it out of your butt."  FFT and individual therapy are always done in a COMMUNITY SETTING.  What you're failing to realize is that SNWP is an OUT OF HOME PLACEMENT that is not recommended for any kid that doesn't meet the clinical threshold of being dangerous to self or others (about .5% of DIAGNOSED patients).

If your kid cannot be treated in the community, then it is appropriate to place them in a mental hospital.

My point is that if your kid requires out of home placement, then they are, by definition, out of the scope of treatment for WT, period.

Maybe you should do your research before lecturing a career mental health professional.  You're on pretty weak ground to be arguing with me.

BTW, how do you have "LOTS of family therapy" with your kid removed from your family?  It doesn't jive with reality.

What is your kid's DSM diagnosis for which s/he "required" WT?  Who performed the psychometric testing?  Who recommended WT?

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-22 10:48 ]

[odie]

Thanks DJ, those links should keep me busy for awhile.

The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein

[Anonymous]

From the SNWP website:

"Why Second Nature Wilderness Program?
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions."

My kid was gone for 12 weeks.  It worked.  We continued family therapy.  It worked. Getting away from a very unhealthy group of friends, a very dangerous city and an unhappy school setting for 12 weeks did my child a great service.  Did we miss each other?  YES. Why are  you so afraid to say it might have worked?  NOBODY is saying it works for all.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-03-22 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"From the SNWP website:



"Why Second Nature Wilderness Program?

Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions."



My kid was gone for 12 weeks.  It worked.  We continued family therapy.  It worked. Getting away from a very unhealthy group of friends, a very dangerous city and an unhappy school setting for 12 weeks did my child a great service.  Did we miss each other?  YES. Why are  you so afraid to say it might have worked?  NOBODY is saying it works for all.

 

"

I already said I'm glad that it was a good experience for your kid.  That's fantastic.  God bless him/her and your family.

The problem I have is that the claims made on the website that you quoted have no basis in fact and there is ABSOLUTELY NO CLINICAL RESEARCH that supports this claim.  All you have for "evidence" to support their methodology is their word that it works.  I require a higher standard of evidence than that, as does any clinician.

Nothing works for everyone.  Nobody said that.  All I'm saying is that if worked for you it is reducible to chance or luck.

Again, what was the DIAGNOSIS that required WT?  Who made the dx?  Based on what testing?