Behavior Modification/Torture

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-18 18:16:00, the next programmie in line to die violently wrote:



Just what I thought, no answer.



Next.....

Didn't learn your lesson from the last guy, didya, bitch?

Simple answers for simple minds time.

Subjecting teenagers to "natural" environments where they can be controlled and monitored: abuse, no matter how you slice it. (And a friend of mine really wants to slice it.)

The inflexible line: Sending your kids away.

Ah, fuckit.

Charging...

[Deborah]

It really would depend on the age and circumstances, but?

If I were 2 and banging my head against the wall, I think my mother should allow it. Probably won?t happen again when I realize it doesn?t get me what I wanted and hurts like hell. About two whacks should do it. If it appeared to be involuntary and chronic, and I was sustaining injury, damn straight, put a pillow between my head and the wall or hold me until I calm down, at any age. Get me a helmet and then proceed immediately to rule out any medical/ neurological problems that might cause such irrational behavior. If there was no medical/ toxicity/ neurological problems then I?d want them to explore what emotional issues or dynamics in the relationship/ family were causing such a violent, self-harming behavior. I wouldn?t want to be punished for it. Would you?

And yeh, modeling calm when someone is flipping out can be very useful. But, chances are good that if you are basically calm, reasonable, and level headed, then your kid is not going to escalate to that degree of self harm.

There is a line that programs cross- involuntary treatment.

If you invite me to the wilderness to teach me some survival skills, I can choose to build a fire or go home and cook on the stove.
 
When someone assumes responsibility for the care of a group of children, and are billing for that care, they are required to meet those kids basic needs.

What difference does it make if your bland oats, are dry or cooked? They aren?t required to force the kid to eat burned oats until they puke, or to force the kid to eat the excessive amount of food they ignorantly cooked, or go hungry for days because they didn?t know how to ration their supplies.

I've heard many kids complain of digestive issues after a program. Could it be the raw oats, rice and lentils and/or diets void of proper nutrition?

Reminds me of a time when we were camping. Sixteen buses and vans of young teens pulled in and set up camp. They put up their tents and built their fires to cook what their parents sent, as a number of adults circulated to provide assistance. A valuable learning experience. I observed no resistance. The kids brought what they wanted to cook. Some had hotdogs, some steaks. I venture to guess that none of them had done this before. One kid dropped his big ol round steak on the ground. He and his group had a good laugh at their awkwardness. He washed it off and threw it on the grill.

Lessons don?t have to be punitive. And kids in wilderness programs don?t have to be deprived in order to learn useful things. Its just the only method of 'treatment' some people know. Doesn?t make it the right way, and certainly not the desirable way.

What would you want?

[Anonymous]

My question is hypothetical. If you have been abused in an RTC then I emphasize with your pain. And I emphasize with your anger. I have written my congressman and others and asked them to HR1738. If you have been abused I urge you to seek legal help and give survivor statements. If you really want to close RTC'S then channel your anger into something more meaningful than your suggestions I forgo my constitutional right to free speach. You see that is exactly what they do at some RTC'S and now you want to use the same methods they use physical violence and restrictions of constutional liberties. How are you any better than them.

[Anonymous]

Deb, don't reply to that. In fact, nobody reply to that. Just leave it sit there as the second-to-last-post as a testament to infinite stupidity.

[Antigen]

On 2006-03-18 16:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

What if the behavior you sought to change were self-harming --cutting, bashing head against wall, or other clearly physically harmful?  Would you model sitting calmly, perhaps saying that calm is nicer?  

Sorry, not that easy. Parenthood is not for wimps. If you weren't up for it, you shouldn't have spread your legs / gone for the glory.

If your kid is cutting themselves, you probably have lost some communication w/ her (I'm guessing it's a her, as boys usually do different kinds of things) You might have to go to the horrible, ugly, messy inconvenience of laying yourself open to your child enough to earn the trust to find out what the fuck is bugging her so damned much. Then "model" and explain better ways of dealing with whatever is bugging her so much.

Did I mention that it's not for wimps? Want your kid to trust you? Ok, well it works both ways.

Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.  
-- Old Farmer's Almanac

[Antigen]

On 2006-03-18 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Do you know of any residential treatment centers using this approach? What are their names? Let say you are running an RTC and 180 pound Jeff slugs 130 pound Johnny. How do you handle this keeping in mind the next time Jeff does this Johnny could be in the hospital?"

Consult your higher poser, admit that you were in way, way over your head in the first place thinking you could whip a quick fix on complex life and family issues in x months for y dollars and send all the kids back to their homes where they belong.

Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator

[Anonymous]

Then, since it is so good to model appropriate behavior and open up yourself to find out what bothers the child, how do you do that if the child is not around.  Say if the child "runs away". or stays out at night under the modeling influence of others around their own age who are using drugs, etc etc.  One single person can't expect to model successfully for a whole community and effect change if more of the community exhibits other behavior and attitude.  And experience suggests that peers are the greatest influence in any event.

"If you invite me to the wilderness to teach me some survival skills, I can choose to build a fire or go home and cook on the stove."  In your approach, yes.  But the parallel is the child can choose to walk from the parental model and follow that of the drug abusing peer, as one example.  The child can continue to blame others for all the ils they face and experience, rather than experience the inescapable result of not making a fire for warm food.  I guess each instance involves choice, but one doesn't let the child run from reality.

If you were able to do this far and deep enough, families would do things together, including playing basketball and camping.  Lots of people are so hung up on making the next payment on the luxury home or BMW that they work for the payment rather than focus on more important things - like their family.  Parents are "told" to give their kids freedom, but not how to guide them and model for them well, or even how to fit the modeling into life.  What do you do when you get there and the child follows a self-destructive course?

I don't favor taking kids away from their family, but sometimes that is the better course.  Puting them in a place where they may get beaten is another thing alltogether.  Maybe it is a failure in parenting, though so often because the parent didn't try or didn't follow "authoritative" advice from "experts".

This won't solve the world's problems, but then neither will mindless namecalling.  That there are some bad operators in an industry - say, car dealers or plumbers, or you pick one - doesn't make the industry bad.  And many "programs" actually do a world of good.

(I'll bet the responses on that will be pleasant!)

[Antigen]

On 2006-03-18 18:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
If you really want to close RTC'S then channel your anger into something more meaningful than your suggestions I forgo my constitutional right to free speach. You see that is exactly what they do at some RTC'S and now you want to use the same methods they use physical violence and restrictions of constutional liberties. How are you any better than them.

Your freedom of speech? Nobody moderates this particular forum. Nobody has edited, censured, banned or otherwised attempted to curtail your freedom to say whatever damned fool thing you want to say. In fact, one of the primary purposes for which I go to the trouble of hosting these forums is to let you say exactly what you think so that the whole world can see for themselves. See, for nearly 20 years I tried, occasionally to explain it to normal people and they simply didn't believe it. Thanks for your help.

I don't want to close RTC's. I just want to throw down the gauntlet to YOU, yuppie sell-out. You think RTC is such a good idea? You want to fully understand how a wilderness experience can transform a lost soul and confer enlightenment? Good idea! Honestly, it is! So then just hit the net and book a family adventure and experience at a monastary or wilderness expedition. Look into a stint w/ the Peace Corps or Habitat for Humanity. Whatever you do, never subject your kid to something you don't understand and couldn't endure yourself.

Fuckin' do good yuppie wimp!

The worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics
is often very tolerant and human. But when fanatics are on top,
there is no limit to oppression.

--H.L. Mencken

_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-18 20:14 ]

[Deborah]

Everything?s a fucking impossible crisis with you people.
This is one of those times where I?m inclined to say what direly want to hear. Yes, you and your child are exceptionally unique. There was no way to bridge the communication gap. You couldn?t admit your faults, because you have none. You couldn?t listen to your child because s/he wouldn?t talk to you, even though you were the perfect parent.  Your happy, confident child consciously chose to associate with and follow drug abusing peers. Yes those peers destroyed his/her self esteem and forced him/her to take drugs. It couldn?t have been that s/he felt unworthy or hopeless and was looking for others to commiserate with. There was no resource or means by which to assist him/her in rekindling his/her passion, excitement, 'fire' about life. Yes, isolating your child from friends and family, subjecting him/her to forced marches in extreme weather, limited calories, no hygiene, humiliating and de-humanizing situations, name calling (you think it?s bad here?), denying medical needs, etc, etc? with absolute total strangers you know nothing about, is the most reasonable, humane, and effective means to build self esteem and hope. Excellent modeling for their own parenting, down the road. Their changed behavior couldn?t possibly have anything to do with the conditioning doled out in a fear-based environment. Yes honey, for some, there is no other option. You are exceptional. We feel your pain and confusion. Hope your child was with some truely exceptional people who helped them sort out the confustion and genuinely find some peace and understanding.

Many programs do a world of good? How many do you have direct experience with? How many have you been through? How many do you refer to?

[Anonymous]

"Everything?s a fucking impossible crisis with you people."
Who said crisis?

Neither I nor my child are all that unique.  I have faults, but trying to be the best parent I can isn't one of them.  And while my child talked to me, it wasn't about whatever led him/her to drug abuse, or lying or stealing.  Oh -- I didn't modele those behaviors for him/her.  Tell me then, why did s/he decide to associate with and follow drug abusing peers?  Was it because I failed to bare my innermost feelings and lay my soul bare for him/her to lead them to open theirs so I could ensure they had good self-image despite negative peer influences during the school day?

"isolating your child from friends", given the type of friends - drug abusing, and in self-denial, was not such a bad idea.  S/he needed new friends anyway.  

"subjecting him/her to forced marches in extreme weather, limited calories, no hygiene, humiliating and de-humanizing situations, name calling ... ..." never happened.

"Hope your child was with some truely exceptional people who helped them sort out the confustion and genuinely find some peace and understanding."  Thanks.  That did happen, whether you believe it or not.

I'm sufficiently familiar with several programs to have confidence in what I say about them.  Although I've not personally gone through them, I've discussed them openly with those who have.  And I've not received a cent from anyone for referring anyone anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Lady/Sir: you should have to go through one of these programs you seem so proud of. Bet you wouldn't last one week, WHIMPY!

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-19 07:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

""Everything�s a fucking impossible crisis with you people."

Who said crisis?



Neither I nor my child are all that unique.  I have faults, but trying to be the best parent I can isn't one of them.  And while my child talked to me, it wasn't about whatever led him/her to drug abuse, or lying or stealing.  Oh -- I didn't modele those behaviors for him/her.  Tell me then, why did s/he decide to associate with and follow drug abusing peers?  Was it because I failed to bare my innermost feelings and lay my soul bare for him/her to lead them to open theirs so I could ensure they had good self-image despite negative peer influences during the school day?



"isolating your child from friends", given the type of friends - drug abusing, and in self-denial, was not such a bad idea.  S/he needed new friends anyway.  



"subjecting him/her to forced marches in extreme weather, limited calories, no hygiene, humiliating and de-humanizing situations, name calling ... ..." never happened.



"Hope your child was with some truely exceptional people who helped them sort out the confustion and genuinely find some peace and understanding."  Thanks.  That did happen, whether you believe it or not.



I'm sufficiently familiar with several programs to have confidence in what I say about them.  Although I've not personally gone through them, I've discussed them openly with those who have.  And I've not received a cent from anyone for referring anyone anywhere.

"

Karen I thought you were done with fornits?  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

(I'll bet the responses on that will be pleasant!)

You are a troll. ::troll::

[Goodtobefree]

I understand the desire for anonymity, but is it possible that each anon could have a number or something?  Simply for the sake of clarity, I think it would be good if there was some way to label the posts, especially when 2 or more anon's are arguing, it tends to get pretty confusing.  They could still be anonymous and not have to set up an account or recieve pm's, I just think it would be to everyone's advantage if all the posts from an ip address had some kind of tag just so we know they're from the same poster.

[Anonymous]

The reality is that a lot of times kids are forced into residential treatment by the courts. So there is no option to bring the child home.  The question was meant to see how to take the theory of modeling and honest communication and see how that would apply in a residential setting with a given set of realistic circumstances.