Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Daytop Village

Daytop doesn't deserve to exist

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Anonymous:
How do you define success?

I argue your point of "people who changed while at Daytop may have succeeded at some other form of treatment program." How do you know that? Also what about the hundred of thousands of people who left Daytop and at some point in the future became productive and successful individuals don’t they get any credit for that? You tend to put so much effort into trying (and by the way failing) to slander the program that you lose sight of all the good. Daytop is not for everyone, this is a fact. They never claimed to be nor do they discourage other methods or forms of treatment. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They try and in the majority of circumstances succeed in helping people.  

 "You can't do it alone" - Monsignor William O' Brien

Ursus:

--- Quote from: ""Honesty"" ---I argue your point of "people who changed while at Daytop may have succeeded at some other form of treatment program." How do you know that?
--- End quote ---
I don't.  At least not assuredly.  But neither does Daytop know that they are the "only" or "best answer."


--- Quote from: ""Honesty"" ---Also what about the hundred of thousands of people who left Daytop and at some point in the future became productive and successful individuals don’t they get any credit for that?
--- End quote ---
Was that due to Daytop?  Or despite it?


--- Quote from: ""Honesty"" ---You tend to put so much effort into trying (and by the way failing) to slander the program that you lose sight of all the good.
--- End quote ---
I don't think I have slandered them.  At least, not yet.  I do, however, seriously question them and their claims.  My concerns about the abuse make the alleged good seem marginal.  Perhaps even accidental.

I do not know Monsignor O'Brien and thus, unless I am convinced otherwise, I shall assume for the moment that he had the best of intentions.  But, as we all know, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."


--- Quote from: ""Honesty"" ---Daytop is not for everyone, this is a fact. They never claimed to be nor do they discourage other methods or forms of treatment.
--- End quote ---
What about the adolescent programs, did those kids have a choice?  Weren't there also court-ordered stays?  Please correct me if I am overstepping my self here.


--- Quote from: ""Honesty"" ---Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They try and in the majority of circumstances succeed in helping people.
--- End quote ---

I'm trying not to lose sight of the bigger picture.  But in my book, it looks like they did more harm than good.  The bigger picture also includes spin-offs and other programs whose ideology they helped shape, whether they were aware of it or not.

And, btw, I'm glad you enjoyed the post.  I appreciated finding it as well, despite ideological differences we seem to have.

Anonymous:
Daytop and other TC's typically define success as complete, uninterrupted abstinence, just like 12 step programs do (although there was a time when alcohol wasn't considered a drug and you got "drinking privileges" right before you graduated the adult programs).  This is what they tell their patients = success.  If you have one slip, you have to start your abstinent day count at zero again.  

This means that if you have had ten years and shot up for one day and didn't the next day, that person is considered as "recovered" as someone who has shot up for ten years and is clean for one day, which, of course is absurd.

And, by that standard, their success rate if they count everyone who walks in the door-- as you must if you are doing honest research-- their success rates are 10-15%.  If you count only graduates, five years later you do see 80-85% abstinent, but remember, only 10-15% complete.

So, while they then go around denouncing "harm reduction" programs like needle exchange and moderate drinking, they often measure outcomes in harm reduction, not abstinence terms when they are forced by researchers to include not just graduates.  So they talk about employment, not being re-incarcerated or re-arrested and reducing drinking and drug-taking.  

And here you tend to get the classic, 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 are about the same after as before.

Of course, they won't admit that they are using harm reduction outcomes when they use measures other than total, uninterrupted abstinence, but that's exactly what they are doing.

Anonymous:
whatever Daytop that Ricci went to, and what it claimed to be, is irrevalent
-Ricci started Elan, which could be called Synanon Jr.
ive been doing research (being a former Elan student) and even the program vocabulary directly translates from Synanon to Elan, GENERAL MEETING, SPLIT, CONTRACTS, etc....
-Hence, Ricci went to a Synanon Based program and then got rich (or richer) by starting a new one to further abuse generations or adolescents
-I wouldnt feel that bad if he was buried alive actually, thank god he is dead and i wish the same awful fate on anyone else who does what he did, i wonder if he was buried with his money

Anonymous:

--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---
--- Quote from: ""odie"" ---Maia Szalavitz  is forever coming up with flawed information such as that chart. Then you have the conspiracy theorists here on Fornits that follow her as if she was the second coming. Joe Ricci was never associated with Daytop Village in NY. He was at Daytop in Connecticut which is an entirely different organization. http://www.aptfoundation.org/daytop.htm
He spent a short time there then ran off. If she actually did any research as opposed to still looking for the guy in the grassy knoll she might have a shred of credibility.
--- End quote ---

Well, thanks odie, for clarifying that and providing the link.  I did check out that website, as well as APT, and it seems like it's a primarily community-based therapy source... although the Daytop portion (treating adult addictions) is based on a Therapeutic Community model, which is not at all the same thing.  

Daytop - NY, from what I gather, is also based on a TC model.  I am curious as to why APT called their adult addiction treatment program "Daytop," surely there must be some link between the two Daytops at one point early on?  

Elan School, of which Ricci was a founder of course, is based on a TC model, and truly the place has essentially zero outside community interaction save that based primarily on PR concerns.
--- End quote ---

  Daytop in CT was started by Daytop in NY. When Dave Deitch was forced to resign there was some split ups with Marathon, Concept, Gaudenzia Houses, Daytop Inc in Ct became independent from Daytop Village.  The APT Foundation took over from the Drug Dependance Unit of the CT Mental Health Center.
  Prior to my completion of treatment at Daytop in Ct with 15 months clean, I was given my Drinking Priveleges. When I graduated at 19 months I was already drinking too much. I was in Daytop from Aug 1970 until March '72.  
  I quit drinking 23 yrs ago. I got strung out again after spinal surgery but I've been clean, in recovery for nine years in NA.

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