This goes out to all our Fallen Soldiers that left HLA

[Anonymous]

this is directed to any pretty boy/girl bitch who complained about their stay at hla. because i have seen that place and u really dont know how much worse you could of had it. so be greatful because a lot of people would kill to be their right now

[Antigen]

On 2006-02-05 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"this is directed to any pretty boy/girl bitch who complained about their stay at hla. because i have seen that place and u really dont know how much worse you could of had it. so be greatful because a lot of people would kill to be their right now"

I'm guessing you're comparing HLA to some other program(s). We're comparing it to the real world. And let me tell you something, seriously. From all I've read and what I can extrapolate, HLA is, by far, less fucked up than some of these places. And I don't think I've ever seen a single alum or drop out say anything to the contrary.

That's one reason why I'm so interested in HLA. If ya'll could see how many of these allegedly drug addled, troubled kids are posting from their dorm rooms you'd laugh at those outrageous characterizations.

No, HLA didn't do half as good a job of scrambling your heads as a lot of the other places. Mark it up to incompetence or niavete, but the final result seems to be a bunch of bright and fairly competent young people who wittnessed how the Program works and got out w/ the lucidity and credibility to explain the process to an incredulous world.

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5617&forum=9#50637' target='_new'>Timoclea

[Antigen]

On 2006-02-03 08:00:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"Bus, did you get a degree in Hospitality Management or something, or did you work your way up?

I find it terribly amusing that you work in the hospitality industry, yet you are as inhospitable as the surface of Mars.  Interesting indeed...
"

Well, if you had grown up in a tourist economy or worked in the industry, you wouldn't be at all surprised.

I always hated floor work! Too much ass kissin' for me. I'd rather take min+ a couple bucks for back end work than deal w/ those caddy bitches just for the tips. Wanna hear some raw shit, man? Go to work as a prep cook!

My guess? Worked his way up w/ a little help from friends (only way in the hosp industry)

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Why I Live at the PO[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-02-05 19:38 ]

[Antigen]

On 2006-02-03 09:27:00, HLA Truth

On 2006-02-03 09:11:00, THE ONE (chewy) wrote:

"I was untouchable because no one ever got to me, i did me, like I said i did do what i wanted when i wanted to and i had everyhting i needed, but yeah i did have it the worst"

wrote:

"Maybe I am missing something.  Did you say you ...

Aw, come on! If you want to casually change the subject like that, you have to wait awhile or at least till a few other ppl post to carry off the convincing effect that you just didn't take notice.

You need schoolin', darlin! And you won't get it there cause logic doesn't count where you are.

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Why I Live at the PO[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-02-05 19:39 ]

[Antigen]

Truth[sic], is it that you're waiting for a call back from Len or Joe to approve your response?

What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684855674/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Henry Kissinger

[Anonymous]

i wish i could go there right now. the stuff really is funny. that kid was like, crying about having to carry boulders or broken up cement. That sounds like a rest compared to some shit i have been through. I really hate when the officials try to bring a place down just because some pussy kids complain about it. I was in a school that really did help and it is getting shut down for the exact same reason.

In high school wrestling, there are kids who puke, and then keep running, and its voluntary. Im not saying that that is how everyone should do things, im just saying that it is only as bad as you make it out to be.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-02-06 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"i wish i could go there right now. the stuff really is funny. that kid was like, crying about having to carry boulders or broken up cement. That sounds like a rest compared to some shit i have been through. I really hate when the officials try to bring a place down just because some pussy kids complain about it. I was in a school that really did help and it is getting shut down for the exact same reason.



In high school wrestling, there are kids who puke, and then keep running, and its voluntary. Im not saying that that is how everyone should do things, im just saying that it is only as bad as you make it out to be. "

Sure, prison is only as bad as you make it out to be as well.  Torture camps, too.  That's just not the point.

The point is that there is NO PURPOSE to these activities.  There is nothing to be learned from them and they can be dangerous (ask the kid with the broken foot, or some of the others with permanent back damage or hernias).  This is also not addressing the fact that the staff of HLA are currently stating on this board that this type of punishment is not being used - a blatant prevarication.

Now, let me ask you, if the staff that works there feels the need to lie about and cover up this practice, is it really on the up-and-up?  I think not.

This begs the question of what else goes on there that is illegal/immoral/damaging/dangerous that they are lying about and covering up?

[HLA Truth]

On 2006-02-07 05:37:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

On 2006-02-06 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:


"i wish i could go there right now. the stuff really is funny. that kid was like, crying about having to carry boulders or broken up cement. That sounds like a rest compared to some shit i have been through. I really hate when the officials try to bring a place down just because some pussy kids complain about it. I was in a school that really did help and it is getting shut down for the exact same reason.





In high school wrestling, there are kids who puke, and then keep running, and its voluntary. Im not saying that that is how everyone should do things, im just saying that it is only as bad as you make it out to be. "

Sure, prison is only as bad as you make it out to be as well.  Torture camps, too.  That's just not the point.



The point is that there is NO PURPOSE to these activities.  There is nothing to be learned from them and they can be dangerous (ask the kid with the broken foot, or some of the others with permanent back damage or hernias).  This is also not addressing the fact that the staff of HLA are currently stating on this board that this type of punishment is not being used - a blatant prevarication.



Now, let me ask you, if the staff that works there feels the need to lie about and cover up this practice, is it really on the up-and-up?  I think not.



This begs the question of what else goes on there that is illegal/immoral/damaging/dangerous that they are lying about and covering up?
"

If a kid says that they have done work like this at HLA, I am not going to argue with them.  All I can say is that it is not supposed to happen that way.  All work that is done by students is supposed to have a purpose and I believe the vast majority of it does.

Here is the catch 22, however...I hear people say that kids should not do work that has no purpose while on restrictions.  When kids do work that has purpose, however, people complain that HLA is having kids do work that improves upon the school and that that is illegal.  There are complaints either way.

I would be interested in some suggestions of what type of work you think should be done on restriction.

[Troll Control]

I would be interested in some suggestions of what type of work you think should be done on restriction

Well, work that improves the campus or enriches staff is actually illegal, so that should not even be on the table, ever.

Your question above leads me to ask you another question:  What is the purpose of forced labor in the first place?  It serves no therapeutic or educational purpose (surely you won't argue this point - one of the fundamental tenets of therapy is that it MUST BE VOLUNTARY), so why in the world are you doing it at all?

[HLA Truth]

This will just have to be a point that we have to disagree on.  I have seen MANY kids who did not want to get outside and work.  The complained about it, talked about how it was unfair, ect... but then an hour into it started finding the value in hard work and by the end of the project was very proud of what they accomplished.  It was not voluntary, but it was very therapeutic.  Sometimes kids have to be made to do something, before they see the inherant value in it.  And no, I am not talking about the mind numbing, move this pile of wood from here to there and back again crap, I am talking about real work that has a purpose.

Again, I ask you, if they are going to do work, what work would you have them do?  Do you see the catch 22?

[Troll Control]

Again, I ask you, if they are going to do work, what work would you have them do? Do you see the catch 22?

Once more, see below.  There should never be forced labor incorporated into any child's therapy, period.

I will vigorously disagree with you on the point that children need to be forced to engage in labor of any kind for any reason.

I will state categorically that there is NO SUCH THING AS FORCED THERAPY.  That is called "re-education" or "forced indoctrination," not therapy.

The reason there is a "catch 22" is simple: It is ethically/professionally wrong to force children to perform labor as a component of "therapy."  

What you're failing to grasp, Truth, is that your entire program, not just components of it, is a FAILURE.  It is not based on any clinically proven or professionally accepted model.  It is based on principles that have been fully renounced by every single professional society and organization.  That's the long and short of it.  Why don't you get that?

[HLA Truth]

Because, as I have already stated.  I have seen it work for the positive too many times to say that it is a failure.  

It is easy to use scary words like "forced indoctrination" to make it sound like some sort of sick cult.  The reality is that many, not all, of these kids do not have any clue of what it means to actually do some hard work.  Work- not brutal slave labor.  This is something, if done correctly, that the kids can find some value in and make some positive changes for themselves with.

[Deborah]

Is that at least one of the reasons that HLA doesn?t want to be licensed by the state?

Moving boulders/cement, dragging a large pole around the field and doing push-ups if the pole stops moving, cleaning dumpster with a toothbrush, and the like are forced activities that are purely punishment.

Digging steps out of the side of the mountain, picking up trash, cleaning dumpster with a toothbrush, chopping wood, etc, enhance the property and would not be allowed if licensed. There is a reason for this. Programs can not use the kids as unpaid labor, or subject them to dangerous activities.

Can you cite one parenting expert that recommends useful work as punishment. Some even warn against ?rewarding? necessary work- laundry, cleaning, etc. How does ?work? as punishment foster a positive attitude toward necessary and satisfying work, much less a sense of cooperation and camaraderie?  

I can?t see that any of the kids found ?inherent value? in the ?work? they were forced to do.
If anything they have developed a negative association with (aversion to) work, and to nature as well, due to the ?punishment? associated with being forced to spend time in nature- Ridge Creek.

How have you seen it work in a positive way? Compliance without complaint does not ensure that any value has been gain from the experience.

If I wanted to teach my children the value of work, that is not the way I would go about it.

[Troll Control]

This is something, if done correctly, that the kids can find some value in and make some positive changes for themselves with.

"Done correctly," in terms of any therapy means "not forced."  There just isn't any other way to say this.  There is no such thing as "forced" therapy.

I also have no doubts that the "work" being performed falls largely into two categories: facility enrichment and mindless labor like moving rockpiles.  I'm sorry, Truth, but that just doesn't jive with what you are saying about "meaningful work."

You will say that if this is happening, it shouldn't be.  However, it is well-known that the children are generally "supervised" by uneducated, untrained staff that just don't know any better and when "the cat's away, the mice play."